Saints 20 @ Bucs 23: Making the Grade
by Saintsational on Dec 2, 2008 6:00 AM CST
38 comments
Quarterback D
I never thought I would ever have to give Drew a D after everything he has done so far this season but even he admits that he tried to force both of those intercepted passes. Brees' two interceptions just killed the Saints chances of winning the game. We still love you Drew.
Running Back C
Can you believe that those are the numbers of the teams leading rusher this game? I think Pierre looked pretty good out there and could have done better had he been given the ball more. Reggie's production was just pitiful but this was his first day back. He definitely gets a buffer. The main point here though is that the coaching and strategy are hurting the run game more than the actual players performances.
Receiving C
Colston is back. He didn't score but he was Drew's go-to guy just like the good old days. Brees also looks a bit more comfortable with Shockey. However the rest of receiving corp put up mediocre numbers and there were 8 dropped passes on the day only about half of which coach Payton said could be blamed on the weather. Also, a bad Buck Ortega route could be blamed for one of Drew's interceptions.
Offensive Line C
I am not usually one who is very good at noticing what linemen are doing and whether they are doing it well or not but the fact that even I could tell Jammal Brown was not doing a good job on his side speaks volumes. Drew did not have as much time as he is accustomed to having. They also combine for two false start penalties and one holding penalty.
Defensive Line B-
More Bobby McCray goodness on Sunday. He continues to get to the quarterback better than any of the other lineman. Will Smith also had 8 tackles. Jeff Garcia escaped often and scrambled for more than 42 yards though and they still need to get more pressure. Also...no Pee-Wee Herman dance.
Linebackers B+
Three out of the top four leading tacklers for the Saints on Sunday were linebackers. Surprisingly, Shanle is at the top of the list. It's also nice to see Vilma and Fujita actually both play well on the same day. Vilma is the star though and his forced fumble and stripped ball are more of what this defense needs. He had better be on this team next year. They don't get the A though because they also allowed Garcia to scramble.
Secondary B+
I really wanted to give these guys an A but Josh Bullocks came into the game and ruined it for everyone. Randall Gay and Jason David made some pretty clutch plays late in the game. In fact, the defense actually tightened up late in the game, the sign of a good defense. I'm actually starting to forget that these guys are not our starters.
Special Teams B+
Did you see that one punt by Pakulak. He kicked the crap out of it. I think Payton is keeping him. I am even more sure that Payton will keep Garrett Hartley. The weather on Sunday was a good test for him and he passed with flying colors. No magic from Roby yet though.
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BTW, Garcia >> Brees
Guys, I like Brees better, but the Tampa game was another good example of my problem with Drew/the Saints offense/Payton in a 4th quarter. AGAIN the Saints were in a perfect position to win and this time literally threw the ball away.
One of the big knocks against Garcia is that he crumbles under pressure. But he played fine in the 4th. He didn’t make mistakes. He did what he needed to do.
I don’t even know how the Saints can fix problems like this? Better blocking? Better receivers? Definitely a true everydown back like McCallister needs to be on the team…and used. I’m not even convinced that the current team cannot do it—they have done it once before.
This O-line doesn’t always block well but it’s hampered by injuries. I also think that Payton’s playcalling isn’t as bad as his personnel decisions. Deuce really needs to be in the game a lot more, even if we use PT as fullback.
Reggie at tailback more than 5 times a game is a giant mistake. We probably have to run him there some just to keep the other team honest with him, but the guy is a slot receiver and every time he doesn’t catch a ball out of the backfield is a wasted play.
Just venting, without the beer can.
by xen-cuts on Dec 2, 2008 7:25 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
have to disagree with you there, about your assessment of Garcia's 4th Q "fine" play against us Sunday, Xen-cuts
Tampa Bay’s 4th Quarter Drive Summaries (I know the spacing of the columns is effed up, but try to decipher it if you can)
T.O.P./ Drive Start/ # plays/ yards/ result
2:15/ TB 25/ 3/ 0/ Punt
1:00/ TB 30/ 3/ 0/ Punt
1:44/ TB 20/ 5/ 36/ Punt
0:29/ NO 17/ 4/ -2/ Field Goal
1:36/ NO 33/ 3/ 0/ End of Game
Sure, he didn’t fumble the ball away on that 4-play, -2 yard “drive” to the game-winning FG, and sure he didn’t throw two 4thQ INTs like Brees, but about all you could say about that 4th Q performance is that he didn’t lose the game for them (which again, is much more than Brees could muster), but I would not call that “fine” quarterback play (and I would not cite that performance as evidence of him shaking the “he always crumbles under pressure” moniker – he had 3 other drives to get that winning score, and they produced a total of 36 yards and 3 punts). Unless you meant that he played “fine” the way Dilfer played “fine” for the 2000 Ravens (Super Bowl Winners). Although if Brees had done that for us in the 4th on Sunday and we had won, I’d accept it, take the win and just hope for better next week. And, if I had a choice of great individual stats vs. team success, I’d choose team success every time.
That’s all for now…feels good to be getting the bitterness/sadness of that ugly game flushed out of my system in time for the Falcons on Sunday…
Saints officials have cited Grant's and Smith's number of quarterback hurries as evidence of their quietly productive play...Technically, Smith "hurried" Jeff Garcia on his 39-yard touchdown pass to Antonio Bryant on Sunday.
--Jeff Duncan, Times-Picayune
by HansDat on Dec 2, 2008 6:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I just watched the game again on NFL Network
Tampa Bay is hugely overrated. The drive at the top of the 3rd quarter from the Saints 46 (facemask) for the TD was the only one they earned. Chasin’ David’s burn treatment accounted for their other TD to Bryant. The difference (and it’s a small one) is that the Saints beat themselves on that play.
Saints D played a pretty good game. Garcia did not. Brees and Bush certainly did not. But that game was still very winable with less than 2 minutes to go. Very much so.
What’s that?.. uh…PLAYoffs? Don’t talk about…Playoffs? You kiddin’ me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a GAME.
by stujo4 on Dec 2, 2008 10:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I took my medicine and watched the 2nd half on the NFL Network, too
The D played great in the 4th Q. Brees’ interceptions were totally avoidable and inexcusable. On the drive leading up to his first INT we were smoothly moving the ball with runs and short passes – gaining 3-10 yards per rush and 7-15 yards per short pass, and then, inexplicably, on first or second down from the 20, Brees throws to Shockey at the goal line, but because he and Ortega are running almost the same route, Ortega’s man steps over and tips the ball up and Cato makes the pick. OUCH.
Saints officials have cited Grant's and Smith's number of quarterback hurries as evidence of their quietly productive play...Technically, Smith "hurried" Jeff Garcia on his 39-yard touchdown pass to Antonio Bryant on Sunday.
--Jeff Duncan, Times-Picayune
by HansDat on Dec 3, 2008 6:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Could someone please explain a little detail to me?
Why was Ortega in?
I understand that Shockey is, by default, our starting tight end. I’d prefer Billy Miller, but that’s just disagreement #12,217 I have with Sean Payton.
But if we’re in a two-tight end formation, why Ortega and not Miller?
Anyone else notice that Payton makes an outright fetish out of “spreading it around?” What’s wrong with leaving your best players in long enough for them to get in some sort of groove?
0-17
by MtnExile on Dec 3, 2008 4:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well that’s what they EXPECT! Got to keep the opponent guessing. Whoops! There’s another reverse. Huh WHA?? Onside kick in the first half!
What’s that?.. uh…PLAYoffs? Don’t talk about…Playoffs? You kiddin’ me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a GAME.
by stujo4 on Dec 3, 2008 8:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
full disclaimer
I got to go to the reopening of the Superdome in 2006 for the Falcons game. I hadn’t yet seen Payton’s team, even on TV. I vividly remember having both my hands on my face Home Alone style thinking “This coach is fucking crazy! Who KNOWS what he’s going to do next?”
It was fun then. Not so fun now. Time to get back on it, Neil Young. The Fundamentals.
What’s that?.. uh…PLAYoffs? Don’t talk about…Playoffs? You kiddin’ me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a GAME.
by stujo4 on Dec 3, 2008 9:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
gave a C
would have been worse but the defense and field goal unit pulled the grade up
can’t believe I just typed those words
by MobileSaint on Dec 2, 2008 8:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
wow F's and D's
It seems that the fans are somewhat disappointed.
Saints are a .500 team, you have to give them a C. But we gave them B’s and A’s earlier so maybe D’s and F’s are appropriate.
I don’t think that the Saints make adjustments very well either. Drew got a lot of pressure. Why not put in 2 tight ends to help block? Or keep that fullback in for insurance? Or call some draw plays? I don’t know, I’m ignorant. But I do know that I haven’t seen any praise from the experts about Payton’s imaginative play calling, win or lose.
What’s that?.. uh…PLAYoffs? Don’t talk about…Playoffs? You kiddin’ me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a GAME.
by stujo4 on Dec 2, 2008 8:58 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Imaginative play calling?
As in, “imagine this worked”? Or, “imagine we had a game plan suited to our personnel, our opponent, and the elements?” How about “imagine having a coach more interested in winning than in being clever”?
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one...
by MtnExile on Dec 2, 2008 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
good thing for Payton that you guys don't get to go to the press conferences
Facing an angry lynch mob after every loss would not be fun.
What’s that?.. uh…PLAYoffs? Don’t talk about…Playoffs? You kiddin’ me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a GAME.
by stujo4 on Dec 2, 2008 11:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not that he doesn’t deserve it
What’s that?.. uh…PLAYoffs? Don’t talk about…Playoffs? You kiddin’ me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a GAME.
by stujo4 on Dec 2, 2008 11:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not every loss
I have seen them play hard and lose.
I have seen them play smart and lose.
No problem with those games.
But this team … in that last game. The Defense stood on their head and they still lost.
I say the defense stood on their heads not because they were outstanding.. but they worked for their success. The offense was a dogs breakfast.
MT
by MT_always on Dec 2, 2008 2:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Grades
The one encouraging thing was the effort. I would have hated to see them just “show up” with no intensity.
I have said this before but the onus falls on Sean Payton. Hell I’m tired of writing about it and talking about it, but it is the crux of everything that has been wrong the last two years. I still wonder what happened to his psyche during the NFC championship game, but he has never been the same sense.
Pass, pass, pass!!! It doesn’t matter who we play, down and distance, field conditions, defensive schemes, roster, healthy Deuce (beginning of last year), rehabbed Deuce (this year), Bush in, Bush out, PT good game (shows promise), winning or losing during the game, it is the same damn thing pass, pass, pass.
Buchanon’s statement is laughable. The Bucs know him better than he knows himself. Also, I could not even begin to imagine what the 0-17 statistic says about this team, it literally sends chills down my spine.
Drew Brees has made Sean Payton look better than he really is (which is a hard statement to make since we are a .500 ballclub the last two years). Payton’s game management is borderline insanity. His record in games, his horrible “challenge” efficiency, onside kicks for no reason, “cute” plays, and his inability to adapt his philosophy as the game unfolds is just plain arrogance.
90% of the success of 2006 should be given to Payton. He came in under harsh conditions and fostered a winner’s mentality. He always appeared to be coaching on the sidelines, in players faces, intense on all phases of the game. He came up with a winning formula, and seemed to get the most out of his players.
Fast forward, mediocre at best. Stubborn at best. Just plain crazy at worst. This is the NFL. The games are won/lost by inches. Missed calls, “burning” timeouts on challenges, etc, lose games. I don’t buy the argument that the players need to execute better. If they are not executing on Sunday than they were not prepared. Playing well one week, looking horrible the next is coaching. Put the players in situations were they can excel.
The talent is there. I just don’t know what to think anymore.
by Ditka'sGhost on Dec 2, 2008 11:29 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
boom I rec'd it
Payton’s game management is borderline insanity. His record in games, his horrible "challenge" efficiency, onside kicks for no reason, "cute" plays, and his inability to adapt his philosophy as the game unfolds is just plain arrogance.
What’s that?.. uh…PLAYoffs? Don’t talk about…Playoffs? You kiddin’ me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a GAME.
by stujo4 on Dec 2, 2008 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We need a "Coaching" category
Payton deserves an F for this game. He’s the play-caller and it was his insistence on predominately airing the ball out that lost this game. Is he playing to make the playoffs this year or to just help Brees break Dan Marino’s passing record?
Go Saints!!!!
by satchmo26 on Dec 2, 2008 11:33 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
answer: just help Brees break Dan Marino’s passing record. And he will bask in the reflected glory.
What’s that?.. uh…PLAYoffs? Don’t talk about…Playoffs? You kiddin’ me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a GAME.
by stujo4 on Dec 2, 2008 11:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We need a "Deuce" category also
On a side note, am I the only one who thinks Deuce still has something left? You could make the argument tht he is still rehabbing or that PT has a step on him right now, but I hate how everyone is talking retirement for no reason. No one is clamoring for LT to retire because his numbers are off. If PT is the future, I can not think of a better backup than Deuce.
Also, look at Bush and PT, they are both small guys – will they hold up a whole season? Bush has already shown he can’t. Also, who knows what kind of shape Deuce will be in after another year of rehab. It is not like he has seen any wear and tear this season. He may even be better. He has shown that he still has his “power game” which of course is not needed in the “pass happy circus” we have. My gut is telling me Deuce does not want to go out like this. He will play somewhere next year, I just hope as a saint.
Just a thought.
by Ditka'sGhost on Dec 2, 2008 11:46 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Don't get me started on Deuce
I’ve expressed my frustrations with Payton over not getting Deuce more into games many times here. I absolutely agree with you. I don’t believe Deuce is washed-up by any means. Until I found out Deuce was still having some problems with one of his knees a week or so ago, I was thinking it was just blind egotism and stubbornness from Payton that was keeping Deuce out. I’m starting to think that once again. Come on, why hold Deuce completely out until the third quarter Sunday? He was obviously healthy enough to play earlier and he looked better in that one 9 yard run Sunday than he did against the Pack. He only got 3 touches! Pierre looked great too, and he was also underused. I’m pretty much ready to jump completely off the Payton bandwagon. I hope he game plans a lot better for the Falcons and demonstrates a little more balance this week that results in a win. We just lost a game, so I guess that means he’ll find a way to win this next one in this roller-coaster ride of a season we’re having. If he blow this one, I think there will be a colossal shift by Saints fans against Payton, if it hasn’t already happened. That was a stupid move by Benson to extend Payton’s contract after only one win this season.
Go Saints!!!!
by satchmo26 on Dec 2, 2008 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
look at Bush and PT, they are both small guys
Hey man, that’s my thing.
What’s that?.. uh…PLAYoffs? Don’t talk about…Playoffs? You kiddin’ me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a GAME.
by stujo4 on Dec 2, 2008 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Coaches quotes
Could’ve, would’ve, should’ve is the difference in what I’m talking about…the good teams get it done!!!
I think of this quote everytime we lose and I look at the records of the other teams in our division.
Maybe I shoud have been Mora’sGhost instead of Ditka’s.
by Ditka'sGhost on Dec 2, 2008 11:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
we're close, and close doesn't mean shit! You can print that in the paper tomorrow!
Best Jim Mora rant of all time (both quotes from my last two posts are from the same rant for those who don’t remember). We immediately rattled off 9 straight wins after that speech to close out the season.
by Ditka'sGhost on Dec 2, 2008 12:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm gonna check You Tube for this...I need a laugh right about now
DEUCE or DIE!!!
by Hollywoo! on Dec 2, 2008 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL...
I think part of that press conference is shown in the new Coors Light commercials…
DEUCE or DIE!!!
by Hollywoo! on Dec 2, 2008 12:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I gave us a C
Although the defense deserved a B, considering I think they are a C and D bunch that has been playing decent of late.
With all the comments on the board about the coaching, I had to revisit the Bucs game. What worked at home in a dry Superdome, with a passionate crowd of WhoDat faithful on our side, did not work in a wet, hostile Tampa stadium with a much better defensive opponent. I had to ‘rec’ MntExile’s comment about Payton not using “a game plan suited to our personnel, our opponent, and the elements”. Very true, and kind of comical.
Drew got a C+. The plus is in the fact that he still is one of the most talented QBs in the entire league and his numbers, outside the INTs, were not terrible. He barely missed another 300 yd game and he completed most of his attempts. No, it was not a great game for him, but I bet there are some teams in the league who would love to get 300 yds and 2 TD out of their QB. Ask the Bengals or the Raiders. However, I do not think that forcing passes into covered receivers is all Payton’s fault. Throwing the ball away or even taking a sack in those situations would have been better than turning the ball over. Take a sack and then perhaps the call from the coach is in question, but throw an INT and then the QB and coach both share the blame.
by CajunCavern on Dec 2, 2008 12:48 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Don't tell me the Saints are a Dome team, I'll treat you like you're my brother and then one of us is going to have to leave the room before the grandkids see something they should not
I take one game at a time. But I can’t help but look forward to Chicago. I’ll be a LOT more forgiving of PayLoo if they can beat Chicago at Soldier Field this year, and I mean BEAT THAT BITCH URLACHER DOWN.
What’s that?.. uh…PLAYoffs? Don’t talk about…Playoffs? You kiddin’ me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a GAME.
by stujo4 on Dec 2, 2008 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
53%
Is NOT most of his attempts.
Brees sucked.
I think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread and I will stand up and say he bought the farm that game.
I just hope he has the flu or something.. something that made him horrible..
MT
by MT_always on Dec 2, 2008 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It was that damned Ambien again
What’s that?.. uh…PLAYoffs? Don’t talk about…Playoffs? You kiddin’ me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a GAME.
by stujo4 on Dec 2, 2008 3:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
but there were some pretty ridiculous drops in that mix, too - those aren't his fault
Saints officials have cited Grant's and Smith's number of quarterback hurries as evidence of their quietly productive play...Technically, Smith "hurried" Jeff Garcia on his 39-yard touchdown pass to Antonio Bryant on Sunday.
--Jeff Duncan, Times-Picayune
by HansDat on Dec 2, 2008 6:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sean Payton
This game was only a symptom of his overall tenure. Sure Drew had a couple of bad throws in “crunch time” that arguably lost the game. But overall, I’m talking the last 29 games (starting with the NFC championship), something has not been right. That is why my rants are always pointing towards the coach. The inconsistency (team is up one week down the next regardless of the competition) and game management are his two biggest flaws.
I’m starting to believe Payton would be a better offensive coordinator than head coach. He needs someone (example – Parcells) to keep him in check. Also, you need a head coach that believes in the little things, defense, special teams, etc. Not just the big things such as breaking Marino’s record on a losing team.
The part that is so mind-numbing is that Payton “got it” in 2006. His judgements were sound. I know winning makes you overlook the crazy stuff, but he did the little things that seperate mediocrity from playoff teams that year. He also fielded a team that fought hard week in and week out.
I’m also convinced I’m gonna have an aneurysm if I continue to post, I’m gonna cool off for a while.
by Ditka'sGhost on Dec 2, 2008 1:19 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
"I’m starting to believe Payton would be a better offensive coordinator than head coach"
Not me. Quarterbacks coach. If he were the offensive coordinator, we’d still be complaining about the game plans, and the only difference is we’d be demanding the head coach fire him, instead of resigning ourselves to another 3 or 4 years of this.
0-17
by MtnExile on Dec 2, 2008 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I kinda thing DG meant “on somebody else’s team”.
What’s that?.. uh…PLAYoffs? Don’t talk about…Playoffs? You kiddin’ me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a GAME.
by stujo4 on Dec 2, 2008 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
I’m starting to believe Payton would be a better offensive coordinator than head coach.
Why is the voice of reason so funny?
need a head coach that believes in the little things, defense, special teams, etc.
Oh hell, he has assistants to take care of that.
2006 went to his head. HIs big head. Needs to let those visors out all the way to get ’em on.
What’s that?.. uh…PLAYoffs? Don’t talk about…Playoffs? You kiddin’ me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a GAME.
by stujo4 on Dec 2, 2008 1:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Offensive coordinator
Any head coach would not allow Payton to throw 47 times versus 18 runs. But if we are gonna demote him, let him have “gumbo’s” position of picking up the tee after kickoffs. Also, why are we not getting paid by the Times-Picayune. John Deshazier should be fired for plagiarism.
http://www.nola.com/saints/t-p/index.ssf?/base/sports-4/1228198856278400.xml&coll=1
by Ditka'sGhost on Dec 2, 2008 1:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Haha
I really wanted to give these guys an A but Josh Bullocks came into the game and ruined it for everyone
AHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAAH
Awesome line.
by SaintsDynasty on Dec 2, 2008 3:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I was cussing him in the game thread. I couldn’t believe he got into the game.
What’s that?.. uh…PLAYoffs? Don’t talk about…Playoffs? You kiddin’ me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a GAME.
by stujo4 on Dec 2, 2008 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why is bollocks still on our team, even?
Saints officials have cited Grant's and Smith's number of quarterback hurries as evidence of their quietly productive play...Technically, Smith "hurried" Jeff Garcia on his 39-yard touchdown pass to Antonio Bryant on Sunday.
--Jeff Duncan, Times-Picayune
by HansDat on Dec 2, 2008 7:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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