more stats to prove my point for those of you who care

Brian Westbrook 08 4.1
                                   07 4.8
                      career 4.6

Brandon Jacobs 08 5.1
                      career 4.8

I posted this already on another thread, but it should be of interest here.

Relating to the Bucs game: the first half was pretty pitiful; but the reasons were pretty obvious. Reggie Bush gained 0 yards on three carries; Devery Henderson lost 3 yards on a ridiculous call on 4th and 1. And Pierre Thomas gained only 7 yards, but was given only four carries. Deuce had no carries at all.

In the second half, Pierre got only seven carries, while Deuce got three. Three carries for the whole game. He averaged 4.3 yards on those three. Thomas averaged 3.8 per carry in the second half. The Saints rushing game as a whole averaged 4.0 in the second half. What’s more, Thomas averaged 5.5 when carrying straight up the middle—which is exactly how you run against a defense based on speed and positional discipline.

The upshot is that we can run when we want to. We—meaning Payton—simply don’t want to.

One more tidbit: Pierre Thomas has a 4.6 average over the course of only 78 attempts this year. That’s an average of only 6.5 attempts per game. Bush, on the other hand, is averaging 3.3 yards on 90 attempts—significantly fewer yards, insignificantly more carries. To be fair to both, let’s say the jury is still out…because if the verdict is in, it can’t be anything other than Bush is a bust, and Thomas is better than Santonio Holmes, Warrick Dunn, Earnest Graham, Frank Gore, Steven Jackson, Ronnie Brown, Matt Forte—and, get this: Michael Turner.

And yeah, regarding Warrick Dunn. 5-9, 185 pounds, 4.3 40. Two inches shorter than Thomas, 30 pounds lighter, considerably faster than Thomas’ 4.6. Still, over his career, he’s averaged 4.1 yards per carry, had 5 thousand-yard seasons, and was the featured back for two of the best rushing teams in the NFL. This year he averages 4.4 yards per carry. He’s had a better season average than Pierre Thomas only twice in a 12-year career. Yet he has been considered an elite back, one who could “get it done,” one on whom a successful running game could be based.

Why not Pierre?

Why not Deuce?

Dunn and Portis have significantly more carries than PT. I would argue that PT’s yards per carry would drop given the same amount of carries as Dunn or Portis.

Maybe I should have stated that I like PT and hope he does get more carries.

MtnExile, exactly my point, You could argue that and neither one of us would be right or wrong, because we don’t know. You could argue that the stats could stay the same or even go up with more carries. Who knows? I am just making the point that there is not enough data to be sure.

Phillinwood, my statement is not ridiculous. It might be wrong, but it is arguable. I could find RBs whose carries increased and ypc decreased. And you could find RBs who did the reverse. My point is that to say PT with so little carries is better than other RBs with more carries because of his ypc is arguable.

my main premise is that if PT is our running back, then our running stats fall in line with most other teams so it is a lame excuse by SP to say we pass because he is frustated with the lack of a running game. I say, if you give the ball to Reggie, or if you give the ball to Deuce and he is unhealthy (which I am not sure of) then we will struggle. And if you do a little Reggie, a little Deuce, a little, PT, we will also struggle. But, if you give the ball to the guy with the good stats, the guy who has earned it, the guy with the highest single game rushing total from last season and also from this season, then……..then I think we will do fine and if we don’t at least we will find out before we trade or release him and he goes the the Pro Bowl or Super Bowl with someone else. Maybe be are agreeing???

is a pretty good lot to measure by…………..

since last year, when he averaged 4.8 per carry. But the drop isn’t really significant, in my opinion. Reggie’s has dropped, too, and it probably has more to do with the line or the types of plays called.

But they’re still running is roughly the same ranges as before: Reggie, the mid 3’s; Pierre, the mid-4’s. I’m with Philinwood: I think there is enough data now to support the idea that Pierre Thomas is a good runner (hell, watch him: he runs decisively, aggressively, without skittering around looking for an opening…he just goes) and ought to be the feature back in the absence of Deuce McAllister.

I hate to say it, but Deuce’s absence may turn out to be a blessing in disguise for the offense…IF Payton commits to a single back, and that back isn’t Bush.

Well, Steve, you make a good point that PT’s stats could dip, but on the other hand- 1) 130 attempts is a pretty good yardstick to measure by and we desperately need to find out if PT is a go to guy, and 2) it seems well documented that most if not all backs (in conjunction with their O-Line) get momentum when they get the ball more often in a game- say around the 20 carry mark, and this wears the defense down , the RB gets more comfortable and confident and that is where you see the 9 yard and 12 yard and 26 yard and 43 yard plays develop. I think from watching Deuce when he was in his prime, that concept was obvious. So PT’s stats could actually go up….. if , say, …for example….. Tom Coughlin or Marty Schottenheimer filled in one week as O coordinator and we acttually RAN the ball. We don’t even get enough running plays to set up a DE or a DT with a few straight ahead dives and then a trap to catch them cheating a bit or maybe pull the right guard and then dive the back in his vacated gap to see if we can catch them napping- we don’t run enough except to do the vanilla style basics .

Payton gave a quick response when asked if he would ever envision someone else on his staff taking over his play-calling duties.

"No, " he said.

http://blog.nola.com/saintsbeat/2008/12/new_orleans_saints_dont_put_st.html

Do you believe Coach Payton has learned anything from his offensive coordinator days with the Giants in which he had his play-calling duties taken away? I know you don’t think he would give up the play-calling to someone else but with an elite quarterback in Brees, will he let Drew call some of his own plays? I’m convinced that Drew would provide better balance. Carl, Covington.

Ouch. Good one, Carl. Obviously, the world champion NY Giants are dumber than Payton and Ralph.
http://blog.nola.com/saintsbeat/2008/12/wednesday_mailbag_how_will_sta.html

I agree that Jammal Brown has struggled at times this season but he’s still the best left tackle the Saints have on the roster and remains a very solid run blocker. Because of his balky knees, Brown definitely struggles with speed-rusher types like John Abraham and Gaines Adams but I don’t think his performance is as bad as fans have made it out to be.

Reminder: Jeff gets paid to type this.
http://blog.nola.com/saintsbeat/2008/12/wednesday_mailbag_how_will_sta.html

I’m almost out of breathe about this one.

My opinion, the bottom line is this. Give the ball to PT in the backfield 10-15 times a game, and our running game woes will go away.

Yeah, it’s that easy.

I don’t know if anyone will catch the G.Love and Special Sauce reference but….

for reasons that will be obvious once the game is over.

performing 5 nights a week