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King of the Hill

Can Darren Sharper figure out Eli Manning? Can Manning figure out Sharper?

Can Darren Sharper figure out Eli Manning? Can Manning figure out Sharper?

The opponent the Saints face this weekend may be the most formidable of this season, and the consensus—here and elsewhere—seems to be that this game will answer the question: are the Saints for real? But it will also answer another question, every bit as much up in the air and being studiously ignored by the national media: are the Giants for real?

When you watch the New York Giants play, you come away with the overwhelming conviction that this team is really good: talented, aggressive, disciplined, and supremely confident. They've been to the mountain before, and they see no reason why they shouldn't return. They're the darlings of the media, of course (they're from New York), which makes them the default media favorite to return to the Super Bowl.

When you look closer, though, it seems as though something just doesn't add up. And the more you look, the more questions you come away with. Are the Giants really this good...or have they feasted on a weak schedule?

Star-divide

Schedule

That, of course, is precisely what the Saints have been accused of in some quarters. But if you start your statistical enquiry with a stat the NFL doesn't keep track of—quality of wins—you find that the Giants are far and away the luckier team. Their five opponents so far have a combined record of 6-19—a .240 win percentage! Granted, part of that was damage done by the Giants themselves; but if you account for that by subtracting five losses, a 6-14 combined record (.300) against opponents other than New York still doesn't look too good. By contrast, the Saints' four victims so far have a combined record of 8-11 (.421). Take away those losses to the Saints, and they look much better: 8-6 (.571). We have, after all, beaten the Eagles and the Jets. By contrast, the Giants seem to have based their reputation on dispatching the hapless: Washington, Tampa, Kansas City, Oakland, and Tony Romo in a big game.

Pass Defense

Still...they do have one hell of a pass defense. They're only allowing an average of 105 yards per game. But again, look who they've played. The 0-5 Chiefs gained only 88 yards through the air; the 1-4 Raiders gained 64; and the 0-5 Bucs gained just 58 yards. The Giants have held opposing quarterbacks to an average passer rating of just 60.4, third-best in the league (in first place, at 51.3, is...New Orleans). But Matt Cassel actually played very close to his average against the Giants, and Jamarcus Russell actually had his best game so far this year against New York!

The real difference-maker was Romo, who stunk up the joint with a putrid 29.6 rating—his worst outing since 2007. But a lot of people believe Romo to be overrated: not really a top-notch quarterback. How the Giants' secondary will fare against a top-notch quarterback is one of the season's unanswered questions...because they haven't faced one yet.

Pass Offense

Then again, neither have the Saints. Matt Stafford, Kevin Kolb, Trent Edwards, and Mark Sanchez aren't exactly Murderer's Row. And even if you're like me, and still not sold on Eli Manning, you have to admit he's a solid step up from what the Saints have faced so far. He's even having a Peyton-like year so far: 10 TDs, 2 interceptions, a passer rating of 111.7, which blows away his career average (78.1) and his best previous year (2008, 86.4). Of course, it helps when you have Steve Smith to throw to...apparently, even if it's not that Steve Smith.

But the Saints don't give away much statistically. New York has nine yards more per game through the air; but the Saints have a higher completion percentage. The Giants have a better percentage of first downs; but the Saints have a better percentage of touchdowns. Drew Brees has a better passer rating; Eli Manning has been sacked less. When you ask who has the better pass offense, overall it's a wash...except that the Saints have a longer history of excellence. If one team is fated to cool down, you wouldn't expect it to be New Orleans.

So Manning assuredly represents the toughest test the Saints' secondary has faced so far this season. But there's an unanswered question here, as well, because he's suffering from the sort of nagging injury that has the potential to wreck this game for him...if not the entire season.

"Plantar fasciitis" is what's it's called; and what it is, is a very sore foot. It hurts every time you take a step, every time you shift your weight, every time you push off or land on it. It changes your mechanics, even if only slightly and subtly. A single flinch, and the 50-yard pass only goes for 48...into the waiting arms of Darren Sharper? Maybe.

Against the Raiders, Eli looked efficient. But he only played the first half; and in the second half, David Carr didn't look nearly as sharp. If Manning's injury affects him to the point where Carr has to quarterback for the Giants in the Dome, they might as well just run the ball.

Run Offense

Can the Giants run the ball? That sounds like the sort of question a crazy man would ask. They're ranked 4th in the NFL right now, and under Tom Coughlin they've always been a run-oriented team...and usually one of the best. But bear with me a moment.

We know the Saints can run the ball well; we've seen them do it. And they've done it against a couple of good teams, too: the Eagles and Jets are ranked 13th and 14th in rushing defense (yards per game). The best rushing defense the Giants have faced belongs to the Cowboys, who are ranked 17th. The Chiefs, Bucs, and Raiders are ranked 25th, 28th, and 31st respectively.

Yet even against such inferior competition, the Giants rank only 4th in rushing yards per game. I say only, because while 4th place seems pretty good, the Saints rank 2nd. Once again, the Saints are better at something than the Giants are, and against better competition, too.

There's also the matter of Brandon Jacobs. If you check out any of the Giants' blogs (such as Big Blue View), you'll see there's a controversy brewing over whether Jacobs should continue to be the official "starter" (for however much that terms counts anymore). Jacobs is way off his average of the past couple years—he's dropped from 5.0 per carry to 3.6. Sounds like someone who just signed his big contract.

Meanwhile, Terry Bradshaw's cousin Ahmad is torching the competition with a 6.5 average. That includes a 7.4 ypc against...wait a minute, the Chiefs, and a 10 ypc against...wait a minute, the Raiders. How would Bradshaw fare against a better defense? Well, against the 22nd-best (the Redskins) he gained 5 yards per carry. Against the 17th-best (Dallas), he gained 4.1. Against the 7th best (New Orleans)? I guess we'll see. But once again, it looks as though the Giants have been getting fat off a steady diet of bottom feeders.

Run Defense

And this brings us to the most puzzling aspect of the Giants: can they stop the run?

Until they played the Raiders, the Giants were tied for 31st—last in the league!—for average yards per rush allowed: 5.5. Somewhere, somehow, the picture of the bruising juggernaut that wins championships by rushing and stopping the rush seemed to have totally broken down.

But a closer look at the stats turns up something a bit different. First of all, playing Oakland helped the Giants zoom upward in the rankings: they're now a middle-of-the-pack 16th, with a 4.8 ypc. And what puts them even that low is the game against the Cowboys.

Romo may have been inept, but Dallas' running game torched New York for 251 yards—an 8.7 ypc. But even that is deceiving. Nearly half their output—111 yards—came on three long runs. Take away those runs, and the Cowboys averaged only 3.9 ypc. Take away the Cowboys game, and New York has averaged 3.4 ypc...good enough to make them the 9th-place run defense.

Two slots below the Saints, at 7th.

Who will be King of the Hill?

The picture that develops is that of a complete team, a team better in almost every category than its upcoming opponent. Better at running the ball and stopping the run; better at passing the ball (by some measures, anyway) and (again, by some measures) stopping the pass. And that team isn't the Giants...it's the Saints.

This is not at all meant to dismiss New York: they remain perhaps the most formidable opponent left on the Saints' schedule, including New England. (And the Saints may very well be the most formidable opponent the Giants face for the rest of the year...including those NFC East tilts.) But it's difficult to make a case that they remain on a plateau above the Saints, a plateau the Saints must reach over the defeated bodies of the Giants. Rather, both teams are now on the same plateau; and Sunday, one of them is going to get kicked over the edge.

* * * * *

Addendum

I don't often add to something after it's already been published, but in this case I'm going to make an exception.

I'll admit that in writing this I had hoped to get a rise out of Giants fans—which strategy seems to have worked. What I didn't expect was for everyone to miss the fact that all I did to the Giants was what everyone else is doing to the Saints right now: asking "Are they for real?"

What more do the pundits want? The Saints have beaten better teams than the Giants have, and they've done so in convincing fashion. They're ahead of the Giants in many statistical categories. If you have to ask, "Are the Saints for real?" why don't you have to ask the same thing regarding the Giants?

The consensus among New York fans seems to be, "Because of our history." This is one of those instances where Henry Ford was right: history is bunk. The Giants' record last year has no effect on this year's standings; and the fact that they beat up on teams last season doesn't mean they have a better chance of beating up on the Saints Sunday. The Giants are a different team; their roster has experienced a certain amount of turnover, and some players have regressed (Brandon Jacobs) while others have improved (Eli Manning). Some aren't even on the team anymore...either on IR (Kenny Phillips), on another team (Derrick Ward), or removed from the general population (Plaxico Burress).

The Saints, too, are a different team. They're no longer the poncy passers who finesse the weak teams and get smashed by all the others. So far this year, they've been one of the smashers. So why all this talk of "Aints," except to get a rise out of us? It may be fun...but it's not an argument.

I can't help but feel the answer is that New Yorkers feel like football royalty...as though the Giants have proven, for good and all, that they deserve to be respected as an elite team. That also, of course, is bunk: no team is either permanently good, or permanently bad. It's not only bunk, it's obnoxious bunk, which New Yorkers understood viscerally when the Patriots were universally anointed as the official team of the Archangel Michael before Super Bowl 42. We know how that one turned out. Kudos to the Giants: they proved my point. Were the Patriots for real? Did they not have certain chinks in their armor that made them, after all, not perfect? The answer, of course, was "yes."

Why be so affronted, then, when the question is turned against their own team? Is it possible that there are chinks in their armor that might be exploited by a team several notches better than the Bucs, the Raiders, the Chiefs? Is it possible that evidence of those chinks might show up in the stats? Those are the only questions that I tried to ask and answer, and they're not inherently irrational. Maybe I did a poor job of answering them...but that doesn't make the questions themselves bad, or irrelevant, or insulting.

For the record, and to repeat: I have enormous respect for the Giants. I think this is the toughest game the Saints face this year. Before the season, I had it penciled in as a loss. Given how the Saints have played this season, though, I'm more optimistic. Because, despite what happened last year, this season we're for real.

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Brilliant

Can wait to see some Giants fans comments on this…

by Hollywoo! on Oct 13, 2009 12:12 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

True facts

The game is also in OUR house……I agree with you hollywoo…….can’t wait to hear from the giants fans here………If you giants fans need a crying towel….let me know.
Saints 42….giants 20…….maybe 22 if we throw a ball into the end zone in sympathy for a safety…LOL WHO DAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by whodatone on Oct 13, 2009 12:36 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Three in a ROW

Bills, Jets and the giants all lose and sent home to NY as LOSERS

WHODAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by whodatone on Oct 13, 2009 12:38 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

OH Thats Right

We beat the Bills in NY by twenty points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by whodatone on Oct 13, 2009 12:40 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

congrats

the Bills are a very good team

You play to win the game!

by Simms-McConkey on Oct 13, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

The same Bills team that scored 3 against the mighty Cleveland Browns? That’s reallllly impressive!

by Low Country Giant on Oct 14, 2009 6:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, that Bills team...

…the one whose offense scored NO points against the Saints defense.

The 7 points the Bills scored were on a trick play for the special teams, a fake field goal.

Anything else you’d like to add, Sherlock?

;-)

Irony: An atheist Saints fan.

by GSO Saints Fan on Oct 14, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok

wow…
Are the Giants for real? I’m not sure… they’ve only won 31 of their last 40 games, and 18 of 21 on the road.
It’s not that they’ve squeaked by weak teams: they pulled their starters en route to 24-0 in Tampa, they won 27-3 over KC before pulling their starters and giving up garbage time points, and they beat the Raiders with a backup quarterback playing more than a half, 51-0. Good teams are supposed to dominate bad teams, the Giants have.
Yes, the Giants are for real.
From December 2007 to October 2009, the Giants have been consistently power-ranked in the top 5. The Giants have improved their team this season over last, when they were the No. 1 seed in the NFC. They have a deeper D-line, a diversified offense, and have been getting unexpected contributions in the secondary.
They’re 5-0 while missing an all-pro caliber starting safety and a very good DT (Kenny Phillips, Jay Alford, IRx2), their top 2 free agent signings (DL Canty, LB Boley), 2 starting corners (Ross & Dockery, Dockery now back), and significant missed time from their top 2 draft picks (WR Hakeem Nicks, LB Clint Sintim).
Yes, the Giants are for real. Did you seriously mean that question? Given the two teams’ history, I think a more valid question in the eyes of an unbiased sports fan is, are the Saints for real?
That question won’t be answered this Sunday. It will be answered in early 2010.

You play to win the game!

by Simms-McConkey on Oct 13, 2009 12:42 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Hey Simms

You make a great point…..I have always like reading what you have to say.

by whodatone on Oct 13, 2009 12:48 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

What SM wrote was to the point

I’m sorry, but the front page story has a lot of holes in it! I’m a very rational and non smack-talking fan, but as i read it, it seemed like every other sentence i was shaking my head! I’ll end this on that note!

by Hootman on Oct 13, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No need to end

What was wrong with it?

Please understand this first, however: I have enormous respect for the Giants (I even like them, too, whereas I hate the Redskins and the Eagles and anything having to do with Jerry Jones). This article wasn’t meant to be nothing but talking smack from a Saints homer. But judging only from this season’s results so far, the Saints are ranked statistically higher, after playing better competition. What conclusion can I draw, other than this: the question, “Are they for real?” applies just as much to the Giants as it does to the Saints…or possibly more so.

I’ve tried to understand what was going on with the Giants without actually getting to watch their games from start to finish. So tell me—us—what I’ve missed. Are the Giants going to demolish the Saints because of something we don’t know about? Or is the Saints’ statistical dominance actually reflective of game-time reality?

Super Bowl 44: "If you play in this league and it's not your goal, there's something wrong with you." -- Marques Colston

by MtnExile on Oct 13, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great write-up, M-E

As usual. Rec’d it! You make some really good points and even break out the stats, which is something I’m too lazy to do. You basically validated what I already think about this game, but of course I’m just another Saints homer too. This is gonna be a great game. I just hope it goes our way.

"He has got a good ol' boy sense of humor, but he has also got a good ol' boy sense of kick you in the ass, too,"--Gregg Williams describing Bill Johnson. The D WILL ROCK THIS YEAR!

by satchmo26 on Oct 13, 2009 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Respectfully yours, sorry for the tardiness of my reply

This is, afterall, your site and i didn’t mean any disrepect originally. Perhaps there wasn’t as many holes, as i intended in my original post, but there is still one glaring notion that is pointed out on a weekly basis, and here too, “are the Giants for real”?

The Giants are for real! How the Giants are being preceived is the fact they “haven’t played anybody”! They have played 5 games, and out of those 5 games, only one game was there a doubt they might not win. Those other 4, not only were they not close, but the Giants destroyed them. Not only from the final score, but statistically! These are NFL teams, (well sorta) but these games were over either at the half or at some point in the third!

Now, can the Saints games convince me of that? I honestly haven’t seen them play, but i did look at each box score to see if i can visualize a sense of dominance. Again, honestly, i came away with the feeling that the Saints weren’t putting teams away, or more preferrably, teams were still within striking distance at some point! If i’m partially correct on this assumption, then a fair question would be, “are the Saints for real”?

by Hootman on Oct 14, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Historical references to a team may not seem important, but it's a barometer of what the future may hold!

As i read, i got the feeling that what happens in the past, shall stay there and this is a “new” year! This may be true, but history tends to repeat itself. Is it coincidence that there are several teams consistently making the playoffs etc… while others are consistently drafting in the top 10?!

The Giants have been consistently making the playoffs, have the Saints? Historically, have the Saints had a well balanced team, offensively and defensively?! I would dare say no! Have the Giants, all indicators point toward yes! Are the Giants only two years removed from a SB victory, and last years number one seed in the NFC? So for any other reason of because it’s a “new” season, what have the Giants done to not be taken seriously?

OK, the Saints have found success in the defense which was appropriately the weakness of the team, over the past few years, but is it a reason to “think”, this is going to be prolonged success? Are the Saints this years version of the Cardinals, Raiders or a team that is virtually for “real” and “now” may be going forward with being an elite?

The Saints seem to be in an unusual position, whereas the Giants, it’s business as usual. So really, what more do the Giants have to do to prove that they belong? At the same time, the Saints need to prove they belong to be considered as such, an elite or at the least, a team to consider!

by Hootman on Oct 14, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

what game have we not "put away"?

as for calling us the cardinals, this is our fourth year under the current regime. we have had a top 3 offense every year and a crappy def the past two and barely missed the playoffs. yall make it sound like we went 3-13. youve limped into the playoffs a couple times (including a miracle run for the super bowl), and got shut down last year in the divisional round. dont get me wrong yall have a great team. i just dont understand why do you consider yourself leaps and bounds better than us? the last time we played, you didnt snap the ball on our side of the field.

by DrewBreesManCrush on Oct 14, 2009 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

IDK, You tell me, what games were put away?

I’ve already stated that i haven’t seen the Saints play! The box scores indicate that other teams still had a chance. Just an observation. No more, no less!

Now, implying that i’m comparing the Saints to the Cardinals? Or even the Raiders (though no mentioned in your reply) it’s the idea! Realistically, the Saints and the Cardinals can pretty much mirror each other in years past. A solid offense with a mediocre defense. Notice, i didn’t say crappy either!

On to another tid-bit… who in their right mind is making it sound like the Saints are 3-13? I never said that nor have read it! Have the Saints given us a reason believe they are elite?

LOL, yeah, the Giants limped into the playoffs. Whats more likely, an improbable remarkable play, or a perfect season?!

For what it’s worth, i don’t think were leaps and bounds above any team. As a fan, i take every game seriously regardless off opposition! But in this instance, well, the Saints have to prove it!

by Hootman on Oct 14, 2009 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

“But judging only from this season’s results so far, the Saints are ranked statistically higher, after playing better competition.”

They’re NOT ranked statistically higher. The Giants are ahead of them in total offense and in total defense. They’ve also played a fifth game, making that average harder to maintain. I do agree that the Saints have faced better competition, but has it been THAT much better? Not to the point of beating our chests.

The truth is, it doesn’t really matter who your opponents are, as long as you’re defeating them, and both teams have done just that, so far. For every “they haven’t proved anything by playing cream puffs” argument, there’s a “their more demanding victories have taken more of a physical toll” argument on the other side.

We heard it in 2006 when the Bears — who supposedly hadn’t played anyone in the NFC North — took it to the Saints in the NFC Championship Game. We heard it in 2007, when these very same Giants had nothing to play for in the season finale against the Patriots, yet refused to rest their starters. “Why would they risk injury unnecessarily?” many asked. “Why would they want to cool off?” asked the wiser party.

Last year, an Arizona team that “played no one” came out of the challenge-free NFC West, went on a three-game road warrior tear and came within a minute and a half of poor clock management from taking home the Lombardi Trophy. The point is, you just don’t know. Strength of schedule is nothing more than a crutch. Until the two teams do battle and the better emerges victorious, it’s all speculation at best.

We could eek by the Giants and get blown out by Miami next week. The Giants could knock us off, lose Eli in the process and struggle the rest of the year. The Saints could win the next three and still fail to make the playoffs. They won seven straight in 1988 and managed just that.

“Are the Giants going to demolish the Saints because of something we don’t know about? Or is the Saints’ statistical dominance actually reflective of game-time reality?”

Statistical dominance? I hope you’re referring to our first four opponents and not the Giants. There’s nothing statistically dominant about either of these two teams, when compared to one another. Slight edges here and there is all I’m seeing.

"Paralyze resistance with persistence" -Woody Hayes

by coldpizza on Oct 13, 2009 1:33 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Then what the f***'s the point of posting on a message board at all?

Way to be the voice of reason in all this madness, but what else is anyone doing, talking about any sport in between the actual playing and watching of games? The entire point of writing crap down on these threads is A) talking smack to opposing fanatics, B) waxing philosophical about what these competitions “mean”, in the grand scheme of things, or C) dredging up arcane statistics to prove the futility or inevitability of your team’s efforts. That’s all anyone does here!

Clearly, no one knows what’s going to happen this week, or in January. But if we don’t pretend we do, what the hell are we all going to do at our pointless jobs or with our unproductive downtime? I’ll choose to end my hard-hitting diatribe with this, and hope to read from everyone more.

"Brees will kill you, but he lets you decide how fast he tightens the garrote." -Chris Brown

by FuSoYa on Oct 13, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oops, my link failed. Oh, well.

"Brees will kill you, but he lets you decide how fast he tightens the garrote." -Chris Brown

by FuSoYa on Oct 13, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

You definitely have a point there. I guess we could all just take turns typing “C’MON SUNDAY!” I’m down.

"Paralyze resistance with persistence" -Woody Hayes

by coldpizza on Oct 13, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The nutty thing is, no matter how much emphasis you put on ANY statistic, provided there are no undefeated teams by year’s end, an “A > B > C > A” loop will inevitably rear its ugly head. It’s the root of the “any given Sunday” cliche. Outside of “the team with the higher score will win” there WILL be exceptions to every logically sound rule of thumb. There simply is no steadfast W-L indicator that can be applied over the course of 256 regular season games. Time of possession is the closest indicator. Net turnover ratio is second. Do the Saints have the edge in both of THOSE categories on a per game basis? I mean, if we’re going to talk turkey, let’s at least talk the turkey that comes closest to mattering. What we’re doing here is comparable to “Suzi makes $5 an hour lying on her back … Dan makes $7 an hour busting his hump … who has the better job?”

"Paralyze resistance with persistence" -Woody Hayes

by coldpizza on Oct 13, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Suzi gets at least $100 per hour

Have you been stuck in a cave for the past 30 years?

by DontRunBackwards on Oct 14, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Suzi's old school

or paralyzed from the neck down. Not sure which.

"Paralyze resistance with persistence" -Woody Hayes

by coldpizza on Oct 14, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

EDIT
Drew Brees has a better passer rating; Eli Manning has been sacked less.

Passer Rating:
1.Peyton Manning 114.1
2.Eli Manning 111.7
3.Drew Brees 108.4

"With the game on the line. I want the ball in my hands."
-E

by tito (eight and oh) on Oct 13, 2009 1:48 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That's what happens

when you write something over several days and forget to update something. Mea culpa.

Super Bowl 44: "If you play in this league and it's not your goal, there's something wrong with you." -- Marques Colston

by MtnExile on Oct 13, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

actually

saints offense is better than the giants. they have scored more points per game tho they got 3 or 4 yards less per game…ill take the points.

defense is statistically not as good as the giants..but i believe you can look at the opponents. giants did beat some bottom feeders and thats it. they almost lost to dallas despite romo playing horrid. giants have holes in their game that will be exposed by a beastly saints team.

Plain and simple, saints have played better against much better competition. my money is on the saints come sunday.

by lockguy on Oct 13, 2009 3:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

“saints offense is better than the giants. they have scored more points per game tho they got 3 or 4 yards less per game…ill take the points.”

Points scored is extremely close, as well. The Saints offense has put up 123 points, the Giants 144. That’s 30.75 to 28.8. You have to remember that 21 of New Orleans’s points were scored by their defense, while only 7 of the Giants’ were. I’m not sold either way.

“giants did beat some bottom feeders and thats it.”

We needed three and a half quarters to overcome a team that just lost to Cleveland. Let’s talk perspective.

"Paralyze resistance with persistence" -Woody Hayes

by coldpizza on Oct 13, 2009 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That team nearly beat the Pats. too

So shouldn’t the power rankings put the Browns and the Bills right butted up behind the Patriots?

"Brees will kill you, but he lets you decide how fast he tightens the garrote." -Chris Brown

by FuSoYa on Oct 13, 2009 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That also

makes the Saints Defense a better offense than the Browns Offense, I think. So we got that going for us, which is pretty good.

"Brees will kill you, but he lets you decide how fast he tightens the garrote." -Chris Brown

by FuSoYa on Oct 13, 2009 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

c'mon

as well as Darren Sharper is playing, he hasn’t racked up 23 passing yards in a game.

"Paralyze resistance with persistence" -Woody Hayes

by coldpizza on Oct 13, 2009 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess

They’ve got the better YPG offense, but we’ve got the PPG defense-offensive advantage. And I know my boy(?) lockguy will take the points!

"Brees will kill you, but he lets you decide how fast he tightens the garrote." -Chris Brown

by FuSoYa on Oct 13, 2009 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

on lockguy being a boy.

"Paralyze resistance with persistence" -Woody Hayes

by coldpizza on Oct 13, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

did i insult you?

i simply stated my opinion, which is the purpose of this board right? i guess if you can call me a boy while never seeing me or knowing anything about me, i can say you must be a big man hiding behind your keyboard while talking trash?

by lockguy on Oct 13, 2009 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think he was saying you were a guy

and not a girl

Wanna say something? Sign up! It's free!

by Saintsational on Oct 13, 2009 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

well then,

if that is infact the case then i guess i will have to be MAN enough to admit my mistake and say sorry? :)

by lockguy on Oct 13, 2009 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

thanks, lockboy!

"Paralyze resistance with persistence" -Woody Hayes

by coldpizza on Oct 13, 2009 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ummm

saints have not trailed yet this season and the only score buffalo had was a fake punt or something. we shut them down, i think we had it well before the 4th quarter.

by lockguy on Oct 13, 2009 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think I've figured it out

Saints fans believe New Orleans is better, Giants fans believe New York is better.

Man, I’m a genius.

You play to win the game!

by Simms-McConkey on Oct 13, 2009 3:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

boring

it doesnt matter what happens after this game.

the saints are the saints. the giants are the giants. they are both undefeated right now. the media is going to hype the heck outta this game.

the sad thing is the saints could lose 27-24 and people will think its the end of the season for them. drew brees threw 2 ints and bush coughed up the ball on a kick return. or whatever, then they will goto the giants and take their meat out of their mouths and start talking about how great eli manning is.

or it will go the other way. elis obviously affected by his injury, thus the poor play and the loss, and the injuries on defense are finally taking their toll.

like i said, its week 6. not week 14. still got a long way to go. 6-0 and 5-0 would be nice… but there has been only 2 undefeated teams in like 30 years. so the probability of one of these two teams doing it is highly unlikely.

by ImaMoose on Oct 13, 2009 4:06 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

you suck

and I’m not taking you to the game.

Wanna say something? Sign up! It's free!

by Saintsational on Oct 13, 2009 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

im bringing ...

my big blue hulk hands and eli manning jersey

by ImaMoose on Oct 13, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

are you really bringing those hands?

Have fun at airport security with those.

Wanna say something? Sign up! It's free!

by Saintsational on Oct 13, 2009 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

big hands

I know you’re the one.

"Paralyze resistance with persistence" -Woody Hayes

by coldpizza on Oct 13, 2009 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Violent Femmes

Tip’s twice

You think you know, and you don't know, and you never, ever will.-Jim Mora Sr.

by metryman on Oct 13, 2009 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

You play to win the game!

by Simms-McConkey on Oct 13, 2009 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

dont mess with the devils

oh yeah, i bet you didnt know i was a face painter

by ImaMoose on Oct 13, 2009 4:09 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

By the way: I forgot the most important part

If the Saints wear their gold pants, they’ll win. If they wear their black pajama bottoms, they’ll lose. This has been proven by modern particle physics.

Super Bowl 44: "If you play in this league and it's not your goal, there's something wrong with you." -- Marques Colston

by MtnExile on Oct 13, 2009 6:13 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

sunday

to all you aints fans…………come sunday we will see who the better team is, should be a great game….GIANTS 28 AINTS10

by wsgiantsfan on Oct 13, 2009 6:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

not cool...

give us some respect as to not call us the AINTS

The Easter Bunny is a savage...

by ShadowFlash on Oct 13, 2009 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

28-10 Giants

…is not a great game. 28-24 with the Saints on the Giants 3 as time runs out would be a great game. Even better if it’s 28-24 Saints.

Super Bowl 44: "If you play in this league and it's not your goal, there's something wrong with you." -- Marques Colston

by MtnExile on Oct 13, 2009 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

it used to be

we hoped to be playing defense with a small lead at the end of the game. In the Eli era, it’s perfectly OK to be down 6 with 2:00 to go

You play to win the game!

by Simms-McConkey on Oct 14, 2009 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What a douchebag!

You come over to our site to disrespect our team with childish name calling? You can say anything you want about our team but please don’t come over here with that “Aints” crap. Not cool. What’s even less cool is that you did it without using capital letters and decent punctuation. Read a book, dude! Better yet, read MtnExile’s excellent breakdown on why our Saints are gonna win. If they wear the gold pants, it’s a done deal: Saints 5-0.

"He has got a good ol' boy sense of humor, but he has also got a good ol' boy sense of kick you in the ass, too,"--Gregg Williams describing Bill Johnson. The D WILL ROCK THIS YEAR!

by satchmo26 on Oct 13, 2009 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've coached quite a few teams the past few years,

young kids, mostly girls teams beause I have daughters and they are quite athletic. One of my favorite things I like to bring up before a big game is that it really doesn’t matter who is a better team. In fact, there have been occasions where I have out and out told my team that the other team was a “better” team. But I have also told them that I expect them to win the game, and that they have every right to victory, and that the “better” team only wins some of the time. It is never an excuse that the other team was “better.” It’s all about playing well amnd making plays and winning pretty or ugly, in spite of who is the favorite.

Having said that, I think the Giants are an excellent team. I also think this year’s Saints can beat any team on any given Sunday if they play up to their potential. They could also lose if they play poorly. If you are thinking DUHHH??? well I can remind you that many, many seasons it was quite a stretch to say that the Saints could beat any team if they played up to their potential. Their potential was far below this year’s. This is a different year in that if they play the way they can, they can win. Some year’s it was like if they play their best game ever, the opponent has to basically stink up the field with their worst performance ever for the Saints to win. Well anyway..

I personally have questions about the NYG receivers. They have to prove to me that they are the elite group that they are being made out to be. They may be, but I am skeptical. Time will tell. Obviously with the Giants great defense (no questions there) and their excellent ground game ( that appears to be real), the passing game has less pressure on it than some other teams. And Manning is very talented. But, if, and this is a big if, the Giants are losing with 2 minutes left vs a good team, I know Manning can get the job done, but it will also require the receivers to be able to get the job done. That is what I need to see to annoint their receiveing corps as for real. When they had Burress, it seemed like they could do it. Now they have to prove it to me.

"Indecision may or may not be my biggest problem" - Jimmy Buffett

by Philinwood on Oct 13, 2009 8:40 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Challenge Me, C'mon.

With all due respect to the users commenting on this article, hasn’t anybody learned how to debate?

What is all this babble about passer ratings, league rankings, records, who beat whom what week blah blah. Dispense with the white noise. This is not even good smack talk.

I’m looking forward to seeing this game. And I don’t want to hear this chat about how the Giants, by virtue of only beating crap teams so far this year, still haven’t been tested. The Giants did not decide the order of their schedule, did they?

1. Since the Giants lost to the Patriots in Week 16 of the 2007 season, they have won more games than any other team in the league.

2. In two seasons, the New York Giants won a Super Bowl Championship and finished with the best record in the NFC.

The Saints cannot claim to have done either—not recently, not ever. So as far as I’m concerned, the Saints have to prove themselves this Sunday, not the Giants. The Saints are a good team, one of the year’s best. Both teams will face their toughest opponent yet—and the loser only concedes the day, not the NFC Title.

by NYG85yrs on Oct 13, 2009 9:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Babble

Everything that you call “babble” pertains to this year. The Super Bowl victory was two seasons ago; the first seed in last year’s playoffs was…well, last year. Neither of them is relevant to now. Using statistics is a way of trying to make sense of a matchup that hasn’t occurred yet. If you don’t like that approach, you could just stick with the typical homer approach: we shout “WHO DAT!” and you shout “GO BIG BLUE!” or any other slogan of your choice.

I think the latter approach isn’t nearly as interesting, but that’s just me.

Super Bowl 44: "If you play in this league and it's not your goal, there's something wrong with you." -- Marques Colston

by MtnExile on Oct 13, 2009 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did you read my argument, or just scan the paragraphs, stumble upon interesting words and cough out a response?

I don’t need statistics to, and I’m quoting you, “make sense of a matchup that hasn’t occurred yet.” Can’t we just be content at analyzing what doeshappen?

by NYG85yrs on Oct 13, 2009 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I read your argument. Did you read mine?

What makes you think that anything that happened last year pertains to what will happen Sunday?

To give another example: Tennessee was 13-3 last year, and the top seed in the AFC. This year they’re 0-5. Do you think they’re going to the playoffs because they were so good last year?

An extreme example, admittedly; but it serves to illustrate where the dividing line between reality and fantasy lies.

The Giants aren’t going to win Sunday because they’ve won three Super Bowls; and the Saints aren’t going to roll over and die because they went 1-15 in 1980. Those are facts, but they’re irrelevant to the argument. If there’s any trend that is relevant, it will be one originating in this season…such as the Giants’ relative inability to stop the run. Is it a statistical anomaly or a reflection of reality? I don’t know…and neither will anyone else until it plays out on the field. But it’s not invalid to bring it up, and only a Giants homer takes offense at it.

Super Bowl 44: "If you play in this league and it's not your goal, there's something wrong with you." -- Marques Colston

by MtnExile on Oct 14, 2009 7:05 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

how does last year not count?

of course what happened last year counted. You guys count what Brees did in the past. Because lets be honest. He had two good games and haven’t done squat since. But all you guys keep talking about is how many yards he put up in the past. The reason you guys don’t want to look to the past to help gauge the talent on the two teams is because you guys didn’t even make it to the playoffs last year. If you guys went 12-4 with the best record in the conference, you would be talking about building off of last years success.

by maculis on Oct 14, 2009 8:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

great point

If the only thing that matters is wins, losses and 2009 performance, then I think we can all agree that the Saints have about as much chance of making it to the Super Bowl as the Broncos do. After all, we’re both 5-0 with a slightly better than average game-managing QB and a defense that’s playing quite well.

"Paralyze resistance with persistence" -Woody Hayes

by coldpizza on Oct 14, 2009 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

coldpizza

you are hilarious… funny thing is, I hate it when Giants fans aren’t homers like me and take an objective, thoguhtful analsis… but from other fans I really appreciate it.
Anyway, Nawlins is better than Denver. THAT you can bank on.

You play to win the game!

by Simms-McConkey on Oct 14, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

4-0

"With the game on the line. I want the ball in my hands."
-E

by tito (eight and oh) on Oct 14, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

CP's reading his tea leaves...

…the Saints will be 5-0 on Sunday afternoon, about 4-5 pm eastern standard time.

:-)

Irony: An atheist Saints fan.

by GSO Saints Fan on Oct 14, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

5-0

Nostradamus doesn’t stutter.

"Paralyze resistance with persistence" -Woody Hayes

by coldpizza on Oct 14, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

As Chris Berman says...

That’s why they play the game.

"With the game on the line. I want the ball in my hands."
-E

by tito (eight and oh) on Oct 14, 2009 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

More loose babble.

Such as the Giants’ relative inability to stop the run. Ah and this is supposed to be your point?

I never said facts were invalid to mention, but while you have a right to YOUR facts, I have a right to THEE facts. The NFL makes the schedule for all 32 teams, which is not as it so happens the Giants’ fault. New York did not decide to compete against tomato cans early in the season. But they did what Championship teams do: dominate the teams that they are suppose to dominate. These games weren’t close. Not even the Dallas game, albeit the rushing yards and that, only a 3 big runs.

Do you think the Saints have an advantage playing at home, with their fans in full throat? If you say yes to this intangible, than you must grant other intangibles too. Like, the Giants’ success in the playoffs or winning the Super Bowl as enough recent memory to help the Giants beat a very good team in a very hostile environment. I can’t calculate or measure intangibles same as you can not.

by NYG85yrs on Oct 18, 2009 1:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

two points

you wann debate – here I go:
point 1: you suck.

point 2:

loser only concedes the day, not the NFC Title

I haven’t seen much, if any discussion about this, but this game is MUCH bigger than who concedes the day. Hopefully we can both agree that the Saints and Giants appear to be 2 of 3 or 4 teams capable of winning the NFC (at least at this point). At the risk of jinxing things big-time (knock on wood, cross myself twice, throw salt over my shoulder – there, am I covered) If we assume that they actually ARE that good, then this game could go a long way towards determining who has a better record and thus home-field advantage in the playoffs. I know that I’d rather the Haints not have to play in the Meadowlands in the playoffs, and you really don’t want to be in the dome for a playoff game. Having a tie-breaker over the giants (or vice versa) is going to be huge at the end of the year, assuming no self-destruction…

p.s. just joking about the “you suck” part. Just trying to raise the level of debate

by SaintBevo on Oct 13, 2009 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Saying “you suck” is not raising the level of debate, but lowering the level of discourse. It’s like an angry clod who can only curse and swear in an attempt to explain his thoughts. It shows only a severe lack of vocabulary and/or literacy. Trust me, it takes a lot to make me cry, you can be harsher if that’s your goal.

by NYG85yrs on Oct 13, 2009 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don’t think he got past point one, so he couldn’t have read your post script

I see what you got...Lets rock - Al Bundy

by knucklesmalone on Oct 14, 2009 4:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

however

he did make reference to the “raising level of debate” comment, so I assumed he read the ps. you know what happens when you assume…

by SaintBevo on Oct 14, 2009 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Super Bowl Odds

Tie-Pats & Saints 11/2, 3rd choice tie Giants 6/1 Indy 6/1 5th Eagles 8/1 Pitt 8/1 6th Vikes 9/1 down the List Jets 20/1 Cowgirls 40/1 Miami 125/1 Source: Wed Oct 14 Daily Racing form AM Edition. Vegas not always right but most of the time they know some-tings.

You think you know, and you don't know, and you never, ever will.-Jim Mora Sr.

by metryman on Oct 13, 2009 10:21 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh Yeah

this Sun Saints by 3… solid so far.

You think you know, and you don't know, and you never, ever will.-Jim Mora Sr.

by metryman on Oct 13, 2009 10:23 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Vegas gives the home team 3 points. so basically they are saying this game is a wash.

I see what you got...Lets rock - Al Bundy

by knucklesmalone on Oct 14, 2009 4:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your Right

typed it and realized ,but it ain’t 1 1/2 or 2 we’ll see by Fri., Guess my point was in all my years as a Saint fan we’ve never been at the top of “THAT” list . More towards the bottom ,the closest has been 20-1,down to 15-1 pre-season in recent Payton era.

You think you know, and you don't know, and you never, ever will.-Jim Mora Sr.

by metryman on Oct 14, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This artical was great

Heres another artical also touching on that.Proving the saints are the better team and have faced tougher teams.I say the Giants wouldn’t be ranked where the are and would have lost probly two of it games had it faced our opponents.The Giants have proved nothing this year and we will destroy you.Your comeing to the dome too with a gimp QB and a broken secondary.Drew Brees has had two average games, he never has three.Shockey wants to show you where you can shove NY,and you sound just like the Bills and Jets fans that we trashed last couple of weeks.When we pull of the hat rick of NY will be waiting for you again with home feild advantage waiting for your dribble to begin again.

 http://bleacherreport.com/articles/269742-saints-shine-in-first-quarter-of-2009-nfl-season

by darshiva420 on Oct 13, 2009 10:51 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

drivel

You play to win the game!

by Simms-McConkey on Oct 14, 2009 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorta both

I could make an argument for the weak schedule. I mean, come on Washington, Dallas, Tampa, Kansas, Oakland? And they only beat Dallas by 2 on a last minute drive? Not too impressive. Plus I don’t like them to hold their lead very well- Kansas City started creeping up, although it was incredibly futile and way too late. But give them props for demolishing all of the other teams besides Dallas. I know P.F. and it is a bitch to deal with. Giants are going to have their hands full. Saints by 2 scores. Watch out for the phins though. They are starting to click and might be a bigger challenge than the Giants. ;)

Chief Stalker/ Lead Paparazzi of the official Matty I Fan Club

Knowshon Moreno is actually the illegitimate chocolate son of Dan Marino. Its true!!! I have pictures!!!

by Farorefox on Oct 14, 2009 12:07 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

u got it

miami might be tough and its at miami, tho saints are decent so far on the road.

by lockguy on Oct 14, 2009 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And Romo isn't even "above average" when it comes to QBs

Sure he had one 300 yd game sometime. Kolb has had 2 already, but no way in hell would I consider those 2 elite.

Chief Stalker/ Lead Paparazzi of the official Matty I Fan Club

Knowshon Moreno is actually the illegitimate chocolate son of Dan Marino. Its true!!! I have pictures!!!

by Farorefox on Oct 14, 2009 12:10 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Power rankings?

Who cares what our power ranking is or about an east coast bias. I would rather be disrespected and earn respect than for it to be given. In this game you just gotta beat the respect out of everyone on the schedule. Just like the giants did a couple of years ago. This will be a great game and I just want to enjoy every second that my saints ARE contenders. Who Dat!

by saints fan in cowboyland! on Oct 14, 2009 1:34 AM CDT via mobile reply actions   0 recs

It’s me the douchbag……….sorry about the aint’s coment…i will give you guy’s the respect when you win something. see ya’s sunday night good luck(your gonna need it)

by wsgiantsfan on Oct 15, 2009 8:03 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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