A Tale of Three Plays
by coldpizza on Nov 16, 2009 12:40 PM CST
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Print4-2-SL 31 (7:17) K.Eckel right tackle to SL 32 for -1 yards (L.Ramsey).
4-10-SL 40 (4:36) T.Morstead punts 40 yards to end zone, Center-J.Kyle, Touchback.
4-3-SL 35 (2:29) T.Morstead punts 35 yards to end zone, Center-J.Kyle, Touchback.
What do these three plays have in common? Quite a few things, actually. They all occurred within the last eight minutes of the Saints' 28-23 victory over the Rams yesterday. They all represent offensive drives coming to an abrupt end. They all illustrate the team's recent struggles to close out a game. But more importantly than anything else, they all show a lack of confidence in a particular 45 year old placekicker.
Field goal attempts on these three plays would have been from distances of 48, 57 and 52 yards respectfully. Should Sean Payton be faulted for not taking the not-so-easy three not once, but thrice? Considering John Carney's recent struggles, probably not. Considering there's a second kicker on the 53-man roster, who's basically soaking up a paycheck for the sake of "just in case", maybe so.
A successful FG at 7:17 gives the Saints a 14 point lead. If St. Louis goes on to score a TD to pull within 8, they're certainly not going for a 2 pt conversion, nor would they have to end the game, had Bulger completed his last-second Hail Mary. At worst, we're looking at OT. Granted, the 57 yarder would have been a great kick for anyone, but the Saints were 6 yards closer on 3rd down, before Chris Long sacked Brees. If they play it a little closer to the vest there, we're talking about a possible 17 point (read: three score) lead. Instead, St. Louis answers and makes a nail-biter of it. The third "no thanks, we'll punt" would have extended the lead to 8, again forcing an OT-at-worst scenario.
I realize that having two kickers on the active roster would inevitably create a numbers crunch at some other position. However, considering the Saints were faced with practically the same situation THREE TIMES IN A FIVE MINUTE SPAN, what's the more likely scenario going forth: a.) that we could use a dependable long-range kicker, at some point during the course of an entire game, or b.) that we need to turn our lowly eyes to Chase Daniel to bail us out of the L column?
Let me go out on a limb and say that, if the latter is the bigger concern, we probably won't be an undefeated team for too much longer, even if Wonder Rookie somehow manages to save the day. Further, if a third string emergency QB is THAT big of a concern, why couldn't we have the best of both worlds, BY CUTTING CARNEY?! As is, we're bypassing opportunities to extend a lead (read: put a game away), all because our Visionary in a Visor doesn't want to "make the same mistake twice".
What Payton has to come to terms with is, his mistake wasn't getting rid of Carney, it was getting rid of Carney BEFORE HE HAD AN ADEQUATE REPLACEMENT. That's no longer the situation at hand. Cutting ties no longer entails signing Martin Gramatica, trading for Olindo Mare or drafting Taylor Mehlhaff. We ALREADY HAVE our kicker of the future. At least, in theory. We won't TRULY ever know if that's the case, until we roll the dice. And if a four game lead in your division isn't the right time to be rolling the dice, I don't know what is. "Just in case"? Sean, this IS the "in case". Seriously, when does trepidation become a full-fledged pair of handcuffs? You're not going to get a clearer sign than this, until Carney starts blowing game-winning kicks. Is THAT what you're waiting for, coach? Hell, at this rate, he'll never be given a shot to attempt one. Maybe ignorance really IS bliss!
As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing to lose. If Hartley stinks it up, Carney will still be sitting there. And if he's not, it's not like there's a league-wide drought on kickers who are capable of standing on the sidelines, while the offense elects to punt or go for it on 4th down. Or even kickoff, as the case may be. Simply put, of what value is a player you have no faith in ... for whatever the reason? There's a simple solution to this quandary and he shouldn't be hard to spot. Just look for the sassy poof of hair sticking up over there by the bench.
This FanPost was written by a reader and member of Canal Street Chronicles. It does not necessarily reflect the views of CSC and its staff or editors.
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Good story
and good point. I completely overlooked this particular angle of the Saints’ newfound miserable game management problems. It’s like I’ve completely forgotten that field goals are even an option. Hmm…
"I don’t know if there’s a good time to play the New Orleans Saints this year to be quite honest with you."-Steve Spagnuolo
i was thinking the same thing
the fact that we cant even attempt these kicks is reason enough to get rid of carney. thanks for everything, but we need to go for 48yd field goals. the last punt into the endzone for a net of 15 yards was also disgusting. morstead looked like he was going to the probowl after the first couple of games. now were winning despite him, not because of him.
by DrewBreesManCrush on Nov 16, 2009 1:27 PM CST reply actions
Good points
although I don’t think we should’ve gone for the 57-yarder, the eckle run was head-scratching, since i thought even carney could hit a 48-yarder. don’t know if there’s something going on with hartley that is making payton doubt him, but he’s really a waste of a roster spot right now it seems.
very good points
I mean if you only are going to have the guy kick 40 yard field goals or less than use Hartley. It could come back to bite us in the butt down the line.
Don't worry I got your back cuz...
you right
I agree with everything you said FIRE CARNEY he makes me nervous on extra points he has to go..
thinking along the same lines
And if all worse, we have Morstead who kicked FGs in college. Or we could sign OchoCinco to attempt our PATs. I don’t think anyone’s going for it on the 57 yarder but the other 2 are plausible. Start using Hartley. When’d he lose Payton’s confidence? When he missed a kick in a regular season game? Can’t be that since he was a perfect 13/13(i think) last season.
Superbowl bound!!!...I know! do you?! Go Saints!!
Free Garrett Hartley
And indeed, CP, that was a truly chilling and stomach-churning sequence of “drive-killers” or “drive-enders” SHADES of LAST SEASON, when these things happened and caused us to lose. Just because we’re still winning doesn’t make me any less worried about them.
Punting from between the 40 – 30 yard lines is ridiculous. Payton is so twisted up about the kicking game that he cannot see it straight, and it haunts us to this day, although this year it hasn’t cost us a game (YET).
GOOD WORDS, CP!!!
"In the end, the bread was in the pudding." -- Bobby McCray
When we got the penalty on the punt . . .
It gave us the 4th and 2 on the 48. I thought, “He has to elect to kick the field goal here.” And they ran it . . . with the fullback. That was almost as bad a call as Bill B’s was imo. If your kicker can’t hit it from 48 or if you don’t have faith in his ability to make that kick, it’s time to get a new kicker.
"The key to them winning is to limit their quarterback to under 20 throws a game." -Cris Carter
Morton Andersen just got inducted into the Saints Hall of Fame
I always like him; even more when he learned English! Should we give him a go?
Fat, dumb, and happy. Hell, two out of three ain't bad!
by Just 'Nother Day on Nov 17, 2009 6:06 AM CST reply actions
We weren't losing.
So, why take the risk of missing a field goal, or worse, getting one blocked (you know how low the angle is on those long ones) and giving the Rams great field position or a possible blocked/returned for a TD? Payton obviously was happy with how the D was playing in the second half and decided not to gamble. If either of the scenarios I mentioned had happened, would you still feel like kicking was the right thing to do?
Or do you just have something against Carney?
The only thing worse than losing is not winning.
by Tigernut on Nov 17, 2009 1:36 PM CST reply actions
“If either of the scenarios I mentioned had happened, would you still feel like kicking was the right thing to do?”
Yes, I would. If it’s 4th down, a FG puts you up by two scores or more and you’re within FG range, you kick the FG. I wouldn’t never second guess a coach for NOT going for it on 4th down, unless the game was on the line. I also would never question kicking a FG, based on the results of that attempt.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
i agree with cp
i dont know of another team that doesnt attempt 45-55yd field goals on a regular basis.
by DrewBreesManCrush on Nov 17, 2009 3:41 PM CST up reply actions
I'm with the pizza dude on this one.
Don’t cut Carney just yet but give him a short vacation (inactive) until we know for sure what we have with Hartley.
"Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." --Mike Tyson
Hartley was inactive Sunday
and so was Chase Daniel. So, while it would make sense to activate Hartley (and deactivate Carney) especially this week, it didn’t seem like it was an option to have Hartley kick any field goals Sunday. But, it might be time to switch kickers, at least as far as on the 53-man squad. Don’t release Carney yet, just deactivate.
I think Payton was reluctant to really switch things up drastically (switching kickers is drastic at this juncture and Hartley is inexperienced) and has opted to go for consistency and experience and sacrafice a little distance especially with such a potent offense.
I would really have to know more exactly the difference in the two kickers range, and I mean in a precise way. Obviously Hartley kicks further than Carney, but if he is only, say 40% accurate past 48 yards and maybe Carney is more accurate than Hartley from 42 yards in, that’s a real tough call. Also, am I right that Pressely again didn’t start
but got more playing time in the second half and that’s the second week in a row that we did better vs. run when he played??
"Indecision may or may not be my biggest problem" - Jimmy Buffett
Last year Carney's longest FG was 51 yards.
This year his longest was 46. Hartley’s longest NFL field goal was somewhere between 40-49, I couldn’t find the exact # without a time consuming search, but he clearly has never kicked a 50 yard + FG in an NFL game. Tough choice. We know a little more what we have with Carney and it wasn’t very long ago he kicked a 51 yd FG and made the Pro Bowl. With our high powered offense and turnover-producing defense, it will be rare that we go for a 50+ yard field goal, but it could happen. Early in the season it looked more like a 50 yd field goal would be less important, but lately it looks a little different. Plus, I think Carney is more aware of what medications are banned in the NFL given his extremely long career and lack of suspensions (lol) . Again, I guess it all hinges on how far each is kicking in practice. I also think Payton might be more comfortable with Carney i.e. outdoor stadiums and the different weather factors that he has been dealing with for 20+ years. Hartley has very little of that experience.
"I think agree, the past is over" - George W Bush
48, 57, and 52 yards?
Hell, even the best kickers miss those sometimes. If I were a coach, I sure wouldn’t be attempting them unless I was down and running out of time.
The only thing worse than losing is not winning.
by Tigernut on Nov 18, 2009 1:47 PM CST reply actions
I’d also be willing to bet that if you’re bypassing 48 and 52 yard FG attempts with any given regularity, odds are you’re going to be down and running out of time more often than if you weren’t.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Philinwood makes a good point below.
Maybe your beef should really be with Payton and not the old man.
The only thing worse than losing is not winning.
by Tigernut on Nov 18, 2009 10:41 PM CST up reply actions
If Payton had a kicker he was sure could make FGs of 48,52 and 57 yards
odds are he’d be active
"I think we agree, the past is over" - George W Bush
KICKER
Nice post CP. I thought this exact same thing about carney during those last few drives. If we cant trust dude for a 45 yarder indoors…it’s time to go.
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