Knowshon and Pierre
by MtnExile on Mar 19, 2009 8:25 AM CDT
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PrintNow that the Saints have plugged their holes on defense, talk is beginning to concentrate on the "best player available" strategy in the draft--and a lot of that talk centers around drafting a running back, either Chris Wells or Knowshon Moreno.
We'll get into more detail on Moreno as a draft choice later on. But for now, I want to share an insight I had while researching Moreno's career and how he might fit with the Saints:
Knowshon Moreno is Pierre Thomas.
I can't think of anything Moreno would bring to the Saints that Thomas doesn't already provide. Here are Thomas's and Moreno's personal stats:
| Pierre Thomas | Knowshon Moreno | ||||
| Height | Weight | 40 Time | Height | Weight | 40 Time |
| 5' 11" | 215 | 4.66 | 5' 11" | 217 | 4.60 |
Physically, Moreno and Thomas are virtually identical. Now, a comparison of their seasonal stats:
| Pierre Thomas | Knowshon Moreno | |||||||
| Year | Team | Carries | Yards | Average | Team | Carries | Yards | Average |
| 2004 | Illinois | 152 | 893 | 5.9 | ||||
| 2005 | Illinois | 127 | 664 | 5.2 | ||||
| 2006 | Illinois | 131 | 755 | 5.8 | ||||
| 2007 | Saints | 52 | 252 | 4.8 | Georgia | 248 | 1336 | 5.4 |
| 2008 | Saints | 129 | 625 | 4.8 | Georgia | 250 | 1400 | 5.6 |
Two things stand out: 1, that Thomas' college average was actually even better than Moreno's; and 2, that Thomas never had the workload that Moreno did. Moreno has proven that he can carry 250 times a season; but in New Orleans, would he? Would he, in fact, bring anything to the team that Thomas doesn't already give us?
This FanPost was written by a reader and member of Canal Street Chronicles. It does not necessarily reflect the views of CSC and its staff or editors.
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if we still think we need a big running back...
why not take ian johnson from boise state later in the draft? he’s a big kid, who ran an unbelievable time at the combine in the 40, was a very good player in college, has a smokin’ hot wife that he proposed to on and national tv and has off the charts intangibles
by DeuceisLoose926 on Mar 19, 2009 9:07 AM CDT reply actions
Besides
…he’s not big. He’s smaller than Pierre is. He was listed as 5’ 11’, 195 in college; he weighed 212 at the Combine. Ran a good 40, though.
If it’s a BIG back we’re after, Chris Wells is about the only one in this draft. Maybe Hollis Thomas can do a Fridge impersonation.
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
wow, didn't realize he was small
i’d never seen his measurables until you listed them there. he looks much bigger, my fault. i like the hollis idea, but if not what about javon ringer? he’s big, but did carry a huge workload at michican state. he would probably be there in the 4th round, though
by DeuceisLoose926 on Mar 19, 2009 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
we don't need a Mark Campbell at RB. Do we?
Negatives: Staggering sophomore production influenced by Boise State’s offense. Unusual build for a running back, as Johnson has narrow shoulders and hips. Lacks elite timed speed. Runs a bit upright, leading to unnecessary punishment. Struggled with injuries as a sophomore and junior, leading to a decrease in playing time and raising questions about his durability. Has missed all or significant portions of games throughout his career due to a variety of injuries, including a punctured lung, bruised kidneys and torn knee ligaments. Will need an extensive medical check.
Copyright NFLDraftScout.com, distributed by The Sports Xchange.
Shockey me, make me feel better....
OOOOH!
That sounds scary. No, we certainly don’t need a Mark Campbell at RB. I like Mark, but…..well, Stu and I both have expressed our concerns over hearing, “Campbell shaken up on the play,” practically every time he caught the ball. We can’t have that at RB.
Go Saints!!!! Deuce may be gone, but he will never be forgotten.
by David "Satch" Kelly on Mar 19, 2009 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions
I Hope Not!
Give Pierre the ball. We still have Bell and Hamilton both of those guys are like 6-2 230. Bush will be a hybrid type back, as he needs to be. We need to stay on the Defensive side of the ball. The only exception I can think of is maybe an OT and that is only because of the quality of tackles they have out this year.
GEAUX SAINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or center
If we could trade down in the first and pick up another draft choice, we could still pick up a great defensive prospect like maybe Alphonso Smith, or even Brian Cushing if he drops far enough, and in the second grab a center like Antoine Caldwell or Eric Wood. I don’t think Goodwin is a long-term answer.
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
Nice post M-E, rec'ed it!
I wasn’t aware that PT and Moreno were so similar in size. Wasn’t Deuce around the same size when he first started? I remember him being much smaller in that first season. At least, he looked smaller when compared to Ricky Williams. Where would I go to find out his weight and size in 2001 and then compare it to the present? My check at nfl.com and my Google search yielded nothing.
These younger RB’s tend to get bigger over the course of their first few season. I wonder if we don’t need a larger RB this season. Heath Evans may provide that short yardage punch and PT has proven he can break through some tackles as long as the O-line helps him out with some decent blocking. It stills seems wisest for Pay-Loo to go defense with that first pick and then use one of those 4th rounders on a RB.
Go Saints!!!! Deuce may be gone, but he will never be forgotten.
by David "Satch" Kelly on Mar 19, 2009 11:29 AM CDT reply actions
Deuce was ten pounds lighter than now
By his own estimate, he was 6’ 1", 220 lbs. Here is an interview with Mel Kiper in 2001.
Kiper: When all is said and done, how do you want people to remember Deuce McAllister?
McAllister: As someone who had a burning desire to win. I also know that when the time comes it will be hard to walk away from this game.
(By the way…if you want college info on an NFL player, I’ve found that including the word “combine” with his name usually pulls up something useful in Google.)
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
Thanks for the info.
I guess Deuce was a little taller, but the weight was similar.
I just looked up the stats on DeAngelo Williams and see he is listed at 5’ 9" and 217 pounds. He was very successful for most of last season with big runs and a lot of tackles broken, and he’s smaller than PT. This probably helps prove the point that it’s all mostly about the O-line and their blocking ability. The Panthers are more of a running team than the Saints, so it makes sense that they should have a better run blocking O-line. Maybe a RB addition won’t necessarily be THE answer. I’d still like to see one added, but maybe the offseason emphasis should focus on better run-blocking.
Go Saints!!!! Deuce may be gone, but he will never be forgotten.
by David "Satch" Kelly on Mar 19, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
If I'm not mistaken
I think the Panthers are now a zone-blocking team. That could have something to do with it: if a running back happens to be a good match for that blocking scheme, he cleans up in the stats. For instance, Terrell Davis was yet another Pierre Thomas clone—5’ 11", 210, and something close to a 4.7 40—but he WAS decisive in his cuts. A hole that’s only open for a fraction of an instant was enough for him, while it wouldn’t be enough for Reggie, for instance. And it’s not because Reggie isn’t fast enough, it’s because he isn’t decisive enough.
Pierre seems to me to be much more of a straight-ahead, one-cut type of runner, and I think he’d do fine in short yardage with the right short yardage scheme. Our short yardage plays seem to leave a lot of people unblocked, and they penetrate and blow up the play.
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
Yeah plus Deangelo is a bit different than most small Rbs
He has a terrible line at Memphis so he had to learn how to be a bruiser when there weren’t any holes to burst through and then he could combine that with his speed when a hole opened up which makes him very different than most small Rbs. I mean your never gonna see Reggie roll over anybody, lol hes already made it known “go as far as you can then don’t fight anymore”. I would actually look at Herb Donaldson from Western Illinois. Hes got size, power and speed to go along with above average receiving hands for a Rb.He just needs some experience. Just my humble opinion
by blueverinefan on Apr 2, 2009 6:13 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree that if were gonna go BIG go with the BEST BIG guy in the draft, Chris Wells. Hes 6-1 235 and ran a mid 4.4 at his pro day. I say we pick him if we don’t trade down, witch we prob. wont. I also like the fact that we should stick with the D in the draft. I also agree with DIRTY1WB, We still got big guys like BELL and HAMILTON to power their way at goal line, but I’m a little shaky with their durability.
we dont need no RB
We got what we need in PT and those other guys.. umm Bush and Bell .. thats them
MT
no no
Him i want gone.. too much competition. When I come down to the Big Easy I don’t want him hanging around when I say Hello to her.
MT
You’ll be behind me. And behind me on behalf of M-E. They guy needs to come home.
Shockey me, make me feel better....
Oh hell we can share
She can sit on your lap during the second half.
Shockey me, make me feel better....
pierre thomas all the way
moreno would be a surplus back. i think we end up taking a linebacker in the draft. hopefully cushing.
Pierre's time
No RB’s, continue to build D, need another S or LB 1st rd, somebody that can play and contribute early, later rd’s….O/D linemen
You think you know, and you don't know, and you never, ever will know..Jim Mora Sr.
i agree, i'd like a backer after the signing of sharper
i like our depth much better in the secondary with the possibility of trying to convert usama to safety. then, you still have at corner porter, greer, gay and david. backers you have vilma, who’s nasty, fujita who is servicable, but not much more and then shanle, who i personally am not a big fan of. after that, you’ve got a guy coming out of retirment because of tons of head injuries. i don’t know why more of us are concerted at the will and sam positions
by DeuceisLoose926 on Mar 20, 2009 7:52 AM CDT reply actions
Dan Morgan
Is a great LB when healthy and I think his head injuries had a lot to do with his college LB coach… lets just hope he can stay healthy because if he is Wowee is he good.
by blueverinefan on Apr 2, 2009 6:25 AM CDT up reply actions
moreno is a better pass-catcher
i don’t know how to put fancy graphs into this, but last seasons moreno had better receiving numbers than wells by a substantial margin: moreno had more receptions last season than chris wells did in his entire college career (moreno caught 33 to wells’ career-high 8 in 2008), double yards per catch (moreno’s was 11.9, wells’ 5.9), as well as 2 tds compared to wells’ 0.
in terms of who fits in with payton’s philosophy (e.g., cut karney, sign evans), i think moreno is a more clear choice.
but the signing of sharper and the release of mckenzie have really opened up our draft options. i hope we trade down, b/c #14 is unlucky (i’ll post something soon explaining that position).
why do we still need a running back?
we just signed evans and we have thomas and bush. no more running backs. if they draft offense, it better be a lineman!!! but i still say defense. sharper and harper, have safety covered, draft a good corner or linebacker and hope dt/de’s can get some pressure.
Talk about stupid
I just realized our safeties are “Sharper and Harper”! Or is that “Harper and Sharper!” Sounds like an 80s cop show. “They’re cops…they’re football players…they’re our last line of defense!”
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
by MtnExile on Mar 20, 2009 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
What's that show about post-Katrina NO cops that was on Fox in the last couple years?
K-ville or K-town? It had Anthony Anderson in it.
Anyway, maybe Harper and Sharper could make a cameo appearance on it, if it’s still filming…
The Detroit Lions are on the clock!
by Hans Petersen on Mar 20, 2009 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions
One's a hard-hitting run defender with a taste for Mozart...
The other’s a ball-hawking Braniac with an anger management problem…
Together they’re like fire and ice…lukewarm water!!
The Detroit Lions are on the clock!
by Hans Petersen on Mar 20, 2009 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t know about another Pierre Thomas. We already got one. I like Chris Wells here..He can be that power back guy we’ve been looking for and runs a 4.4 for a 230 lbs. guy. That’s not too shabby in my book. But i’d rather a LB here. we got Bell and Hamilton who never really got the chance to shine and is bother around 6 0-6 1 230 lbs.
Reggie,Pierre and Mike Bell
Let us not forget about bell. He can be our short yardage guy who has the capability to break one. He has a lot t prove and he is a tough guy. I think the three backs we have are fine. What we need to do is go after an outside linebacker and add some more depth in the secondary. I think we trade down and add some more draft picks. We have done well with scouting little known or mid major talent. Lance More, Osama Young and Colston. We can do the same now and save s little bit of money.
I heard Payton wants to go after some young O-lineman. Smells of a draft day trade for more picks.
What do you think?
WHO DAT!
Alex Mack?
You trade back to get the top center. You trade up to get one of the top tackles. I hope he’s thinking about a center, if he’s thinking offensive line.
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
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