CSC Interview: Jeff Duncan of the Times-Picayune
I recently had the opportunity to ask a few questions of Times-Picayune Saints columnist, Jeff Duncan. He works hard to keep Saints fans up-to-date and in-the-know with his regular columns in the paper and on nola.com. His Saints Mailbag segments are very popular and since we are all so familiar with his work, I figured we should get to know him just a little better.
A big thank you to Mr. Duncan for taking time out of his busy draft-time schedule to provide us with some detailed, in-depth answers.
In part one of our discussion, which can be found after the jump, Jeff and I talk about his background, his career, the Times-Picayune and the blogosphere. Part two can be found tomorrow.
CSC: Let's get this out of the way right off the bat...Beatles, Stones or Zeppelin?
JD: Wow, not the first question I was expecting out of the box. It’s a close call between the Stones and Beatles, but I’d have to go with the Fab Four. The White Album and Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band are two of the greatest albums ever recorded.
CSC: As a Louisville alum you must have been watching the NCAA basketball tournament closely.
JD: Yes, as a Louisville native, hoops are in my blood. I was disappointed in the embarrassing way Louisville bowed out, but Louisville clearly would not have beaten North Carolina so it wouldn’t have mattered much. Nevertheless, I was hoping for a second Final Four appearance for Pitino at U of L. I actually think Louisville will be better next year – at least that’s what I’m hoping.
CSC: Did you know you wanted to be in journalism while in college? Where did that desire come from?
JD: Initially, no. I attended Eastern Kentucky University as a freshman because I planned to major in Wildlife Management. I wanted to be one of those Fish & Wildlife guys and thought that would be a cool way to make a living. What I didn’t know about was the curriculum: organic chemistry; comparative anatomy; botany. And that was in your freshman year. I bailed on that plan pretty quickly and transferred home to Louisville . I always enjoyed writing and loved sports so it didn’t take long for me to marry the two passions. To this day, though, I have a healthy respect for the LDWF agents when they check my fishing license.
CSC: You have bounced around a bit in your career. Tell us a little about your career background.
JD: I paid my dues, so to speak. I worked through college as a part-timer in the Courier-Journal sports department, taking prep results and compiling the agate page (the small-type page with sports results/scores). I started my reporting career in Tampa , Fla. , as a part-time reporter in the Hillsborough County bureau of the St. Petersburg Times. We had a lot of talent there. Don Banks of SI.com and John Romano, a columnist at the Times, were also in the bureau. I went from there to the Monroe ( La. ) News-Star, where I was offered a full-time position covering Louisiana Tech and Grambling State sports. Bill Campbell, who later would work at The Times-Picayune under Tim Ellerbee, hired me and taught me how to report a story. He was a great mentor. I worked my way up the ladder in Monroe from beat reporter to sports editor. I eventually left to work for sports editor Tom Squires at Florida Today. Tom was another great influence on my journalism career and I’m fortunate to have worked for him. I took a night editor position there but quickly learned that I was not fit to be an editor. I left Florida Today for Nashville , where I re-launched my writing career under Squires at a start-up called Sports Nashville. The company owned Titans Exclusive, the team magazine. I worked there for 18 months before the Times-Picayune hired me to cover LSU sports. I covered LSU for less than a year before being move to the Saints beat.
CSC: What is your favorite aspect of your job? What is your least favorite?
JD: I consider myself a journalist first and a sportswriter second. So my favorite aspects lean towards journalism rather than sports. I embrace the responsibility journalists have to inform and enlighten the public. It’s a powerful position and one that I don’t take lightly. During Hurricane Katrina, I worked with a team of journalists that helped document the disaster and its aftermath. The Times-Picayune was and has been a leader in the city’s recovery and I’m proud of our role in it. We eventually won two Pulitzer Prizes for our coverage and the celebration in the news room after the announcements was among the fondest memories of my career. What a great day. Least favorite? Dealing with the NFL and its sometimes insufferable arrogance. The league takes itself way too seriously. I understand it’s a multi-billion industry but in the end it’s only a sport. Katrina helped put that into the proper perspective.
CSC: What is your ultimate career goal? To be Peter Finney?
JD: No, there’s only one Peter Finney. He’s my idol. Pete is pure class. I’ve never met someone so universally respected and admired. He’s the best. I hope he writes for another 60 years! One day I would like to become a general sports columnist but I’m happy in my current role.
CSC: Which sports writer do you admire most professionally?
JD: It’s too difficult to pick just one. There are so many we don’t have the time nor space to list them. I admire anyone that shows courage in the face of adversity, who fearlessly chronicles the truth and empowers the public. We have a number of great writers on our staff at the Times-Pic and I respect them all. A buddy of mine from back in my Louisville days, Pat Forde, is a personal favorite. Pat has a wonderful writing style but is also a dogged reporter. His columns for ESPN.com are among the most popular items on the site because he both entertains and informs.
CSC: Do you do any creative writing on the side? Poetry?
JD: Alas, not an ounce. That’s why I’m in journalism.
CSC: You've written a book, which I actually own, called Tales from the Saints Sideline. Are we going to see more books from you?
JD: I’d like to think so. I hope to eventually update Tales from the Saints Sidelines for a second edition. It’s in need of a couple of new chapters in the wake of Katrina. Those were fascinating times and important ones in the history of the franchise. I feel a responsibility to document what happened and to set the record straight on the whole Saints/Katrina/San Antonio controversy. If the Saints ever win a Super Bowl, I’m definitely going to pitch that story to a New York publisher. That’s a big “if.”
CSC: In your acknowledgements for the book you thank many other local New Orleans sports reporters. Are you guys all really good friends? Who doesn't get invited to the weekly poker game?
JD: Yes, I’m friends with almost all of the local reporters in the city, both print and broadcast. It’s a pretty small clique. There’s a real camaraderie among reporters. We respect each other and understand each other’s jobs. The people of New Orleans are fortunate. They are blessed with a talented group of dedicated, enterprising journalists. There are also really witty folks, including Jim Henderson, Adam Norris, Les East and Fletcher Mackel. They keep the job lively and fun. I enjoy seeing them on the job and socialize with many of them away from it. They are some of the most interesting, entertaining people I know.
CSC: What's it like being the intermediary between the Saints organization the fans that love it so much? You control what information they have and shape opinions. Do you feel any pressure? Is it tough dealing with angry fans? Any crazy stories?
JD: It’s a big responsibility but I don’t feel any pressure to do my job. When I was a reporter I had a responsibility to inform our readers and to tell, as best I possibly could, the complete story. Ideally, all sides had a voice and the readers could form their opinions with the available facts. Now that I am a columnist, I write almost exclusively opinions on the Saints. A column is a different beast entirely. I am basically being asked to weigh in on any newsworthy subject involving the Saints. That might be state negotiations, a trade, a big win, a heartbreaking loss, the decision to move training camp back home, a hiring or a firing. Anything is fair game. I never have a problem dealing with angry fans. For the most part, their anger is misplaced toward the media, when they are actually upset about something the Saints did. I understand that and don’t take it personally. Ninety-nine percent of the time they just want to vent.
CSC: It's no secret that the newspaper business is in trouble. I've got to give credit to the Times-Pic because you seem to have adapted pretty well with the Saints Fan Zone. It's updated regularly including features like the mailbag, mock drafts and training camp videos so kudos on that. Is it safe to assume that the blog-type format at nola.com is a direct attempt to stay in the game?
JD: I wouldn’t argue with that viewpoint. The news business is an evolving landscape and the Times-Picayune is changing along with its environment. Regardless of the medium, the hallmark of what we do is timely, accurate reporting. That is and always will be the engine that drives the train. People want news. And Nola.com is by far the best online source of local news in the market. That’s because of the Times-Picayune’s news coverage. Everything else – columns, blogs, videos, chats, forums, etc. -- is just lagniappe in my opinion. While it’s trendy to trash newspapers and their projected demise, I’m optimistic about their future. As long as newspapers continue to produce quality journalism there will be a place for them in American society. I shudder to think what New Orleans would have done during and after Katrina without the Times-Picayune. Newspapers are in trouble primarily because of bad business deals and the skyrocketing cost of newsprint not because they aren’t doing good work.
CSC: Has the Times-Pic seen a decrease in readership? Can the nola.com Saints blog be considered a successful alternative?
JD: The Times-Picayune suffered significant losses in circulation because of Katrina and those losses have been exacerbated by the current economic recession. But we are in better shape than many of our brethren nationally. Because of the storm and the dearth of post-Katrina leadership, we have become almost indispensable. I find our relevance greater than ever so I think we’re somewhat of an anomaly compared to other newspapers. Nola.com is one of the most widely-read and successful newspaper Websites in the country. And the Saints coverage ranks among the most popular content on the site. I think readership will continue to grow as we expand and enhance our coverage in the future. Are there challenges? Yes. But there are a lot of people smarter than me addressing those challenges.
CSC: Can we expect more changes toward a blog-type platform from nola.com? Perhaps with more emphasis on community?
JD: I don’t think so. The bread-and-butter of nola.com’s content will always be news and opinion. I think I can humbly and honestly say we are the Net’s most informed outlet for both concerning the Saints. No one knows the Saints better than our beat reporters, Mike Triplett and Brian Allee-Walsh. They do a tremendous job covering the team on a daily basis and are on the pulse of the team. I would put the Times-Picayune’s “beat team” up against any other news outlet in the country. Their news reports on the Saints will continue to be the most important and accurate information about the team available on the Internet.
CSC: Do you read the comments on your stories? Do you get a ton of emails from readers?
JD: I don’t read the comments as much as I probably should. I recently participated in a little experiment where I responded and interacted with readers in the comments section after a couple of my stories. Interestingly, the interaction seemed to improve the quality of the comments. As far as emails go, it all depends on the time of year and the subject matter. Some columns elicit more reaction than others. I usually get at least one email a day but rarely more than a handful. Those numbers double and triple during the season. Of course, when I solicit emails for the Saints Insider Mailbag I often am inundated by requests.
CSC: Do you consider yourself a blogger?
JD: No. I consider myself a journalist. The blog I write is strictly a format to channel news and opinion to our readers. I try to hold my blog to the same standards readers have come to expect from columns and stories. I don’t feel comfortable cutting corners.
CSC: Do you think there is a feeling of contempt for bloggers and the blogosphere among professional journalists?
JD: Contempt is a strong word. I have mixed emotions about the proliferation of blogs and their role in today's world. On one hand, I welcome the open discussion and varied opinions on newsworthy topics. I'm a staunch advocate of the First Amendment and believe wholeheartedly that the more people become engaged in public discourse the better it is for society. I’ve seen some excellent blogs in the Internet so I do not discount them entirely. But there is a clear distinction between a fan’s blog and a journalist’s report and I can not emphasize that point strongly enough. Journalists are trained professionals. They have sources and base their opinions on their interaction with these sources. The Times-Picayune employs trained reporters and editors who report, study and research their beats on a daily basis. They adhere to written standards and policies. Before publication every story is edited for grammatical and factual errors, usually by more than one set of eyes. In general, blogs are produced by fans, and therefore their objectivity is inherently flawed. That might sound harsh, arrogant or defensive, but that’s honestly how I feel.
CSC: I think if the Times-Pic is serious about assimilating into the blogosphere then at some point they would have to acknowledge and interact with other high-quality blogs. It's part of the whole scene. Actually, I consider your willingness to sit down with us pleasantly surprising and a step in the right direction. What is the Times-Picayunes stance on blogs? Is it changing?
JD: I think the Times-Picayune will continue to expand its reach on the Internet and as it does, I’m certain it’s interaction with all other news outlets, including blogs, will grow. The Times-Pic’s goal is to be “the” clearinghouse for news, opinion and information about all things New Orleans . We don’t really have a stance on blogs. Our job is to report news and inform our readers, hopefully in an entertaining way. If there’s something newsworthy for our readers in a blog then we’ll definitely recognize it.
CSC: I know you don't really read blogs but have you ever checked out Canal Street Chronicles at least a bit?
JD: I have read an item or two from the blog but only when someone calls my attention to it, usually through an email link. Otherwise it’s not in my regular reading rotation. When I’m on the Internet I’m searching primarily for news and information about the Saints more than opinions or blogs. I’m more inclined to check out a blog if the blogger has produced some diligent or creative research on the team rather than just an opinion piece. I’m always on the look out for new information.
CSC: Is there any chance that blogs like Canal Street Chronicles will gain legitimacy? Do you think the Saints will ever formally recognize us?
JD: That’s a difficult question. Perhaps, but, unfortunately for the blogosphere, I think those days are a long ways off. It’s difficult to legitimize blogs because they are primarily produced by fans who practice it as a hobby and do not have the standards, policies or practices of major news agencies. I think the best chance blogs will have is to pool their resources, form some kind of national blog network like the Associated Press and then develop and maintain a set of principles and standards that will stand up over time.
Be sure to check back here tomorrow morning for part two of our interview with Jeff Duncan. We discuss the Saints and learn a little more about Jeff's New Orleans favorites.
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Comments
interesting interview
Jeff could save himself some time hunting down all those Saints’ scoops if he would just check out CSC regularly. He has at least a few dozen people here seacrhing for those stories and posting them at CSC. Didn’t know he had a book. Will have to check it out.
Being a Saints fan will take years off your life
by MobileSaint on Apr 23, 2009 8:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Buzzed and rec'd it!
Here’s a link to Duncan’s book on Amazon, for the nonlocals. Simone K. of Illinois thinks it’s fab.
Nice job of interviewing, Saintsational Dave. I noticed you haven’t asked any of my suggested questions. Or more probably he declined to answer them. No, most probably you didn’t ask them. Fine.
I’m going to wait for M-E to weigh in on the journalism aspect, that’ll be good reading.
I used to think the pecking order was Triplett, Duncan, and the rest but lately I have a definite preference for Duncan over Triplett. Allee-Walsh has some dues to pay.
The Times-Pic is a very good quality newspaper, I buy it whenever I am in town.
"The best hope for David to make the final roster is for the Saints to select players at other positions in the draft."- Jeff Duncan, T-Pic 4/8/09
by stujo4 on Apr 23, 2009 9:11 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I had to get permission from Dave first
I didn’t want to burn up his site by being too incendiary. Comments are below.
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
by MtnExile on Apr 23, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow! Great interview, Dave!
I never saw this coming. Many thanks to Jeff for taking the time to do this. I haven’t agreed with every little thing he’s written, but he is my favorite Saints writer and I value his analysis more than most everyone else.
Go Saints!!!! Deuce may be gone, but he will never be forgotten.
by satchmo26 on Apr 23, 2009 9:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I had intended to be gracious
After all, Jeff is sort of a guest here. But he’s also a bona-fide member of the cult of Journalism, which means he’s clueless…and I’m going to try to clue him in.
Jeff, if you’re reading: the economic problems facing newspapers today aren’t primarily the result of bad business deals or the cost of newsprint, though those are small factors. The main reason the major dailies are in trouble is the drop in ad revenue; and the reason for that is primarily the drop in readership.
And the reason for that is primarily the arrogant attitude of journalists, who have elevated themselves into a sort of priesthood based upon their supposedly superior “objectivity.” (For “The Times-Pic’s goal is to be "the" clearinghouse for news, opinion and information about all things New Orleans,” read “there is no salvation outside the church.” What in the world ever gave you people the idea that we’re in desperate need of your opinions?) This leads reporters to write every story, every column, as a sort of sermon, instructing the unwashed readership in what they should believe and how they should think. People aren’t half as stupid as reporters seem to believe: your readers notice that attitude, and many of them resent it.
You state that bloggers—mere untrained fans—are inherently incapable of functioning at the high level of trained journalists: “their objectivity is inherently flawed.” Here’s where you have something to learn, and I won’t even charge you for it:
Your objectivity is inherently flawed. And more than flawed: impossible. You share that trait with every human being who ever lived, Jesus included.
Let’s try a thought experiment. Suppose you go to a Saints press conference, and at that conference Sean Payton makes the following announcements:
1. The re-signing of Deuce McAllister.
2. A trade of the Saints’ first-round choice for a pair of second-rounders and a third-rounder.
3. The impending divorce of Drew Brees and his wife.
4. A court ruling in favor of the NFL in the StarCaps controversy, and the subsequent suspension of Charles Grant and Will Smith for the first four games of the 2009 season.
5. A program involving heavy fan input for the purpose of designing a new logo and uniform.
You return to the office and your editor informs you that he needs five hundred words on the most significant announcement. Quick: what’s your lead? Which of these is the most significant? And don’t say you’ll just write five stories…that’s cheating. You have only so much space, and one story is your assignment. So which is it?
That depends entirely, of course, on your subjective viewpoint. Call it whatever you choose: your values, your worldview, your bias, whatever. It comes down to the same thing. Unless you have a predetermined set of values that allow you to sift what is important from what is trivial, the only way you can report such a press conference is chronologically—and even the decision to do that involves a value judgment. You not only are just as subjective in your reporting as any blogger, you must be in order to function as a reporter. “Objectivity” is in reality nothing more than the cult’s shibolleth, whose only real meaning parses out to be, “we’re better than our readers.” And bloggers are clued in to the reality: no you aren’t. You simply have better sources. And that’s changing. Look at how many stories recently have been broken by bloggers. Look at how many readers abandoned traditional media sources as soon as a reasonable alternative came along. Why, some reporters are even being accused of plagiarizing blogs! (I don’t believe you really did…but you were beaten to the same story by an amateur. That should tell you something.)
I don’t expect the attitude of editors and reporters to change any time soon, and so I expect your readership to continue dropping. It’s true that New Orleans is in a unique position, and the T-P is safe—for now—from the sort of collapse that faces the New York Times (the all-time queen of both Pulitzers and arrogant cluelessness). But the Internet has permanently changed journalism—it has made your cult of objectivity obsolete, and demonstrated to the public that we’re just as good as you are when it comes to interpreting events. There’s no going back.
And Jeff: “every story is edited for grammatical and factual errors”? Puh-lease! It’s obvious you guys don’t even spell-check before you post.
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
by MtnExile on Apr 23, 2009 9:55 AM CDT reply actions 5 recs
well done, sir
You are obviously closer to this subject than most of the rest of us. I sort of felt these things while reading Duncan’s comments but didn’t know how to express it.
Had to look it up: shibboleth ( ) n. A word or pronunciation that distinguishes people of one group or class from those of another.
Objectivity" is in reality nothing more than the cult’s shibolleth, whose only real meaning parses out to be, "we’re better than our readers."
Boom rec’d it!
"The best hope for David to make the final roster is for the Saints to select players at other positions in the draft."- Jeff Duncan, T-Pic 4/8/09
by stujo4 on Apr 23, 2009 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well now I feel bad
Mr. Duncan should understand that he was not invited to be interviewed so that he could be ambushed here. I’m certain that was not the intention. And I’m pretty sure Mr. Duncan will send a retort. If he ever reads this entry.
"The best hope for David to make the final roster is for the Saints to select players at other positions in the draft."- Jeff Duncan, T-Pic 4/8/09
by stujo4 on Apr 23, 2009 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Objectivity is going the way of the dinosaur
But unlike those august beasts, objectivity isn’t going to be vaporized by a sudden meteor strike.
Right now, journalists are desperate to keep their jobs, and that means adhering to the most sacred tenets of journalism as closely as possible. There’s still a very large percentage of readers who get upside at the merest suggestion of bias, forcing you to make a few more phone calls or uncover a few more facts just to get that ever-elusive balance. Does it make the story any better, any clearer, any more informative? Often it does not, but getting caught without a weak stab at objectivity means a sit-down with the boss, angry letters to the editor and plenty of disincentive for trying it again.
The rise of the blogosphere has been on the back of analysis of news, which is increasingly what the people want. They want a viewpoint that they can debate, a fresh spin on a dull Associated Press news item, an intelligent essay or an enjoyable read on a subject they hold near and dear. You can read that style anywhere and get virtually nothing out of it. You say it’s arrogant to strive for objectivity because it cannot be done—and I don’t disagree with you purely on principle—but I don’t know too many journos who are wearing monocles, sipping Dom Perignon and sneering at the unwashed masses in the name of trying to retain balance. It’s simply the way it is, and as with everything else, our fear of industry death is keeping us from making the changes we need to.
I don’t believe journalism’s going to change until that fear is gone, and that’s going to take a shift in the current economic climate. Maybe we’re already undergoing that change, but it’s difficult to see from the inside.
by Dave the Falconer on Apr 23, 2009 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not quite
It’s not arrogant to strive for objectivity because it cannot be done; it’s arrogant to approach an issue every bit as subjectively as the next man, and then claim objectivity purely on the basis of your membership in a particular group—professional journalists.
Journalism has never been really objective. Striving to tell all sides of the story isn’t what objectivity consists of; and simply including quotes from both sides of an issue doesn’t make you objective when it is you who is elevating something to the status of an issue. Journalists manufacture controversies constantly—partly in order to sell advertising, but largely because they view themselves as “the fourth estate”—in other words, as having an important role in managing thought in society. But thought management is different from the mere reporting of fact. Nobody minds it when facts are brought to light; but they do mind it when reporters and editors try to tell them what they should think, believe, or value; and when that happens—and it happens every day, on every page of every newspaper—they understand that the claims of objectivity are meaningless.
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
by MtnExile on Apr 23, 2009 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree
But for a lot of papers, I believe objectivity has become simply including quotes from both sides of an issue. There’s a movement underfoot to erase that, but it exists, particularly at smaller papers where investigative reporting is being undercut by a lack of resources.
There’s plenty of good examples of journalists manufacturing controversies or managing thought, but I think you’re giving your average journalist too much credit for being diabolical. Admittedly I’ve never worked at a large paper, but the last thing I view myself as is a member of the fourth estate. It’s just a job.
Let me ask you a serious question, for a change. If you could change the face of newspaper journalism, what would it look like? And by that, I mean how would stories be conveyed to the reader?
by Dave the Falconer on Apr 23, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
First of all
I don’t believe newpaper reporters are “diabolical,” or that they’re involved in a conscious conspiracy of any sort. They simply share a world view, one that is pounded into their heads in college and every day by their editors. “Objectivity” is a sacrament, and it’s no more a conspiracy than belief in the Eucharist is a “conspiracy” among Catholics.
As for the face of journalism, I see nothing wrong with being forthright. If the paper’s viewpoint is conservative, let them frankly admit it. If it’s liberal, same thing. I’ll give you another example, similar to the one above. Suppose you go to a city council meeting, and the council votes to:
1. Pass a resolution condemning US involvement in the Middle East.
2. Require residential recycling, with stiff penalties for non-compliance.
3. Cut property taxes by 15%.
4. Hire a new police chief, who is a black woman.
What was most important? If you’re a liberal, you’ll probably applaud the resolution. If you’re an environmentalist, you’d pick the recycling program. If you’re a conservative, the tax cut is a major victory. If you’re a black or feminist activist, the new police chief represents progress. Only one of these can be your lead…and whichever you pick as The Most Important is entirely dependent upon the values—the bias—that you bring to the story. The bias is pre-existing. And it’s necessary, as I said above: without it, you can’t separate the important from the trivial.
What’s wrong with continuing to report as newspapers do now, but without the lofty claims of some impossible objectivity that separates journalists from laymen? I suspect the answer is: without Objectivity, the only thing to distinguish journalists from laymen is actual writing skill. And that, as often as not, isn’t there.
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
by MtnExile on Apr 23, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like that answer
But man, you’ve got me hankering for a council meeting of substance now!
by Dave the Falconer on Apr 23, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You think council meetings are bad?
In Louisiana, some of the parishes had (have?) what they call a Police Jury system. That means that each member of the PJ is the representative for his district on the deliberative body, but also each member is the executive authority within his district. So you have a dozen little tinpot Caesars with egos and agendas. Nothing gets done…and you have to write 20 column inches for the next day’s paper.
I don’t miss it.
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
by MtnExile on Apr 23, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that drives me crazy
objectivity has become simply including quotes from both sides of an issue.
And it’s become very prevalent especially on TV news.
"The best hope for David to make the final roster is for the Saints to select players at other positions in the draft."- Jeff Duncan, T-Pic 4/8/09
by stujo4 on Apr 23, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
TV is the worst place to get news.
I don’t want to taint our beloved CSC with the bacteria of politics, but TV “news” networks tend to either take a very lazy approach to their so-called “reporting” are they engage in trying to manipulate their viewers into adopting the point of view that is most beneficial to the plutocratic establishment. The way they are currently trying to shrug off the use of torture is infuriating. But, I’ll leave my comment at that because I’m not trying to instigate a political debate here.
As for sports reporters, I see them in a totally different light from the others. Those at the Times-Pic are our most reliable and consistent source for breaking Saints news. I’m not all that interested in their opinions or speculation on what a team might do. The team/player predictions/speculations by the sports media are no more reliable than the ones we can make in the blogging universe. Occasionally, I may ask Jeff to clarify something like the sudden disappearance of Grammatica and others from the Saints roster, but that’s not very common. I find that most of my questions to the mailbag or live chats rarely get answered anyway, so why bother?
Go Saints!!!! Deuce may be gone, but he will never be forgotten.
by satchmo26 on Apr 23, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One point I may need to clarify
It doesn’t really matter to me if reporters want to think of themselves as objective…just so long as the public—and more important, our potential sources—see through the claim. So long as the Saints’ front office refuses to deal with bloggers because they’re not “objective” like the “legitimate” media, Nola.com will retain its monopoly on the source of news.
What I hope is that bloggers—the best of them, anyway—eventually morph into the new face of journalism, without the baggage of that phony objectivity. And then, Dave and Stu and I, and anyone else connected with CSC, can call up the Saints and get interviews with people who have inside knowledge. It’s just another example of decentralization being a good thing.
(Satch, regarding your example: you say they try to bring about conditions “most beneficial to the plutocratic establishment.” I’d widen that: the media, as a self-defined group, try to act in their own interests. Sometimes those interests are expressible in monetary terms, sometimes not. It’s not always about defending the bosses—witness how they went after the AIG bonuses with fangs bared. But they do seem to be curiously silent at the most inopportune times.)
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
by MtnExile on Apr 23, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dave and Stu and I, and anyone else connected with CSC, can call up the Saints
Boy is that not going to happen in my lifetime. Because we have the poison pill. The minute CSC goes “legit”, Dave will have to ban me because I’ll be talking about Rita’s legs or something.
"The best hope for David to make the final roster is for the Saints to select players at other positions in the draft."- Jeff Duncan, T-Pic 4/8/09
by stujo4 on Apr 23, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Satch--
Off topic, but this is for you.
Any suggestions?
by MtnExile on Apr 23, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean, you meant to be condescending
First, I don’t have a dog in the hunt, so I don’t care one way or another. I’ve read newspapers for years and years, too many to count. And I’ve always liked them — except I don’t like seeing what’s happening to them now as far as the space reductions. To me, it’s sad and scary. I think we need them. But that’s my opinion and I realize some folks don’t share it. I do read blogs sometimes because I have interests in several things and just like to read.
Anyway my take on this subject is that MtnExile has it backwards. To me, it isn’t the journalists who are arrogant, it’s the bloggers. I’ve never read a blogger who didn’t think he was the smartest guy in the room. I’ve also never read a blogger who didn’t attack journalists. Rarely, though, have I ever seen it the other way around. (I said rarely, not never, btw).
Then, there’s this:
“Let’s try a thought experiment. Suppose you go to a Saints press conference, and at that conference Sean Payton makes the following announcements:
1. The re-signing of Deuce McAllister.
2. A trade of the Saints’ first-round choice for a pair of second-rounders and a third-rounder.
3. The impending divorce of Drew Brees and his wife.
4. A court ruling in favor of the NFL in the StarCaps controversy, and the subsequent suspension of Charles Grant and Will Smith for the first four games of the 2009 season.
5. A program involving heavy fan input for the purpose of designing a new logo and uniform.
You return to the office and your editor informs you that he needs five hundred words on the most significant announcement. Quick: what’s your lead? Which of these is the most significant? And don’t say you’ll just write five stories…that’s cheating. You have only so much space, and one story is your assignment. So which is it?
First of all, this is fantasy. At no point would there ever be a day when these things all happen at the same time. Secondly, if this fantasy came true, a newspaper would dispatch several reporters, columnists, and photographers to cover the story. The one reporter wouldn’t pick a story to write, it would be picked for him. There is no subjective viewpoint.
His story would be a part of the overall coverage of said announcements. There wouldn’t be one important issue, it would be five (well, in this case the fan involvement to picking uniforms would be the least important because the Saints will never change their logo and the only way they’ll change their uniforms is if they think they can make more money on jersey sales. And, if they do that, Tom Benson will pick it, not the fans).
At least, in my entire life of reading newspapers, that’s the way I’ve seen them cover issues. I’ve seen them write several stories on what would amount to one of these subjects. Take re-signing of Deuce McAllister for example, I would think the paper would have multiple stories on him, columns on him, photos new and old, charts, stats, everything you could want because that would be what the readers would want.
I think the better ‘experiment’ in this case is, what would the bloggers do if this unlikely scenario happened? I’m guessing they’d wax on their feelings about said subjects. Wouldn’t talk to the coaches, the players, the management, because … well, because they’re not reporters. They’d just write what they think about each subject. Then, the next day criticize what the reporters wrote about it and hope to get a reaction from them.
Instead of attacking reporters, why can’t bloggers just be happy with the forums they’ve got? Love your teams and write about them. People will join in. I’ve never understood the bashing of reporters. Is the objective to try to put all journalists out of business? If so, then what? All info comes from teams, then bloggers give their take? So we’d never find out about injuries, trades, workouts, anything. Just what the team wanted us to know, which is not much, and what the bloggers want to say about it, which is what ever makes them look smart.
Most bloggers act like that reporters should read every word written by bloggers. If they did that, when would they have time to report? I’m guessing they calls sources, cover events, talk to people quite a bit for their stories. They’re pretty much used to being bashed by readers (I have an aunt who calls the paper all the time and rips into the person who answers the phone, not knowing if that person had anything to do with what she’s mad about or not), so why do bloggers think their criticisms are any more important than the person who calls or writes a letter to the editor?
Oh, well. It’s not going to stop I guess. Well, anyway, glad Jeff came on with you guys. Too bad he was ripped for it. He’s probably not going to respond, Why would he? It would just cause more bashing.
by Caffiend on Apr 23, 2009 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hi Jeff Duncan!
What does Caffiend mean?
"The best hope for David to make the final roster is for the Saints to select players at other positions in the draft."- Jeff Duncan, T-Pic 4/8/09
by stujo4 on Apr 23, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Instead of attacking reporters, why can’t bloggers just be happy with the forums they’ve got?
Because reporters have access, and bloggers generally do not.
I’ll let M-E do the rest. Steel yourself.
"The best hope for David to make the final roster is for the Saints to select players at other positions in the draft."- Jeff Duncan, T-Pic 4/8/09
by stujo4 on Apr 23, 2009 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK
I really don’t have a dog either, and evidently I don’t feel as strongly as others do about this
(cou-MtnExile-gh). But I think you missed the main point of his comments. It’s not that he’s the smartest blogger out there, or Jeff Duncan is doing a bad job at all. He seems peeved that anybody in journalism seems to believe that just because they are working professionally that they are less objective than anyone else.
looking forward to 2010
by asaint on Apr 23, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Condescending?
Condescending, hmmm. “Showing or implying a usually patronizing descent from dignity or superiority…” As in, “blogs are produced by fans, and therefore their objectivity is inherently flawed.” Did I say that?
I think you miss the intent of the thought experiment. It wasn’t set up to be a representative slice of journalistic reality, but to demonstrate how difficult it is, given several competing issues, to select the most important one without some kind of non-objective value judgment being rendered. And I’ve got news for you: even if the paper assigned several reporters to cover that press conference, the editor would assign his best man to whatever he considered the most important story. There it is: value judgment. All you’ve done is push the decision one stage further back: now it’s the editor who has to decide on his lead. Which is it?
As for attacking reporters: my beef is with the philosophical underpinnings of journalism in America, not with reporters per se, or with any single reporter, or even with the industry in general. There is very little wrong with the mechanism of journalism, other than an over-reliance on sources—in other words, reporters waiting for the info to come from the team. There is actually very little in the way of investigative reporting in the sports world. There’s news conferences and press releases from the team; accounts of actual games; and researched opinion pieces. The latter two you can see done here on Da Chronic. So the only difference between us and Nola.com is that when the Saints have a piece of news they want to release, it’s not us that gets called. That, and our lack of objectivity.
Still haven't thought of a new signature...
by MtnExile on Apr 23, 2009 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the editor would assign his best man to whatever he considered the most important story.
Absolutely true. Allee-Walsh never gets a good story.
There is actually very little in the way of investigative reporting in the sports world.
That’s hard work with little payoff. Woodward and Bernstein didn’t get rich until they sold their film rights and their books.
"The best hope for David to make the final roster is for the Saints to select players at other positions in the draft."- Jeff Duncan, T-Pic 4/8/09
by stujo4 on Apr 23, 2009 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, condescending
Condescending, hmmm. "Showing or implying a usually patronizing descent from dignity or superiority…" As in, “He’s also a bona-fide member of the cult of Journalism, which means he’s clueless…and I’m going to try to clue him in.” You said that.
I also think your ‘experiement’ is condescending in the form you presented it. You provide five “news events” that you challenge someone to pick and choose which is more important because, it seems, you are of the opinion that journalists are bias. In all my years of reading the paper, the only time I feel like someone has a bias is when he’s writing a column or editorial. I’ve never encounterd bias in the likes of Limbaugh/Hannity or Olbermann/Madow by reading news stories. I’ve seen ‘good news’ and ‘bad news’ written by the same reporters. I think the bias is in the reader in their feelings on the subject, so they take it out on the reporter if the story goes against their thinking. This is an argument I have constantly with my wife. But I digress.
If your beef is with the “philosophical underpinnings of journalism in America, not with reporters per se, or with any single reporter”, then why call Jeff Duncan ‘clueless’. My guess also is that you’re oversimplifying things if you think all the news the paper gives you comes from the team calling them. It seems like the teams want no one to get info except through their own networks.
I wouldn’t argue that investigative reporting isn’t what it once was — that’s what I mean when I said I don’t like what’s happening to newspapers now. They’re not willing to spend the money to do the great work they used to do. I told you, I’m someone who likes to read the newspaper and they’re not as good as they once were in terms of the big, long, articles. Magazines aren’t either. Nobody has the money to do that stuff anymore, it appears (or, maybe, not willing to spend it). It also appears that immediacy has trumped the investigation. Getting information quickly is the reason the internet took off in the first place, so papers had to try to keep up. I’d love to see some of those big stories papers used to do, like the one the Times-Picayune did years ago when they traced Super Bowl tickets that were being scalped back to the owners. That was fantastic, I still have that in a filing cabinet. I’m guessing the “reliance on sources—in other words, reporters waiting for the info to come from the team” that you refer to didn’t apply in that case. I wish the paper would bring that kind of stuff back.
But, like everything, newspapers are a business. And this stuff that we’re doing is what’s popular now. So, if they want an audience, they better do it, too.
There’s a much bigger difference in you and nola.com or The Times-Picayune than just the Saints calling them and your lack of objectivity. And, that’s OK. It doesn’t have to be a war, everyone can co-exist. I assume most folks realize that difference and don’t care. But, as a person who comes to your site to get the opinions of Saints fans, I don’t want to read your bashing of newspaper reporters. I don’t care what you think of them. All I care about is seeing the Saints opinions. Just like I don’t read the paper to see what they think of bloggers. I don’t care about that, either.
by Caffiend on Apr 23, 2009 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fine
Then don’t read what you don’t want to. Everyone’s happy.
And it’s not my site…it’s “ours,” yours as much as mine. Or it’s Saintsational’s, if you want to get technical.
Condescending since 1956
by MtnExile on Apr 23, 2009 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry,
I was responding to this: “So the only difference between us and Nola.com is that when the Saints have a piece of news they want to release, it’s not us that gets called. That, and our lack of objectivity.” There is a difference. But, like I said, there’s nothing wrong with that.
by Caffiend on Apr 23, 2009 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good job, my evil child....
You cleverly used a subject like “journalistic objectivity” as an opportunity to slam the church and Jesus.
I, your father Satan, will save you a warm spot right next to me.
by Tigernut on Apr 24, 2009 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
awesome
i really like that you got to interview him—and i like the vein of questions about the blogosphere. here’s what irks me though:
But there is a clear distinction between a fan’s blog and a journalist’s report and I can not emphasize that point strongly enough. Journalists are trained professionals. They have sources and base their opinions on their interaction with these sources. The Times-Picayune employs trained reporters and editors who report, study and research their beats on a daily basis. They adhere to written standards and policies.
it’s this sort of intellectual elitism that really bugs me, because it asserts that simply because there’s “training,” somehow it’s closer to absolute truth. it’s just such an archaic notion—and in our postmodern society I don’t know why people buy into it still. As though somehow institutional standards give journalists a monopoly on truth—or that only journalists report, study, research, and “have sources.”
Journalists—and sportswriters especially—LOVE to think that they’re somehow objective because they’re “professionals” and are wont to discredit non-professionals because they’re biased. It’s so self-serving.
by jful on Apr 23, 2009 9:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Duncan does have a point
When you say “blog” to Duncan, I believe he is thinking of those crap blogs that Saintsational Dave keeps tabs on but I never ever read. Because they’re crap. Can’t even give you an example because I can’t remember their names and I don’t want to promote them anyway. Mr. Duncan can’t possibly feel that way about CSC. And if he does, well he needs to re-read M-E’s entry above.
"The best hope for David to make the final roster is for the Saints to select players at other positions in the draft."- Jeff Duncan, T-Pic 4/8/09
by stujo4 on Apr 23, 2009 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point wasn't to single out Duncan
or even suggest that he’s doing a bad job. The problem is not with one person, but with the way journalism itself is practiced in this country; and nearly all editors and reporters drank the Kool-Aid in college. They’re constantly reinforced in their belief that they are an anointed people, set apart from the rest, and practicing an arcane art based on “objectivity”—when in reality good journalism is based on writing skill, good sense, and the right sources. You can get the same thing at blogs.
No ambush was intended by me, and certainly not by Dave. But Duncan’s a big boy, and if he shows up I’m sure he knows how to defend himself.
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
by MtnExile on Apr 23, 2009 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Jeff: "every story is edited for grammatical and factual errors"? Puh-lease! It’s obvious you guys don’t even spell-check before you post.
He’s going to take that personally.
And it’s his fault, because he was referring to the print columns, and he’s correct. But the nola.com columns, edited? HA!
"The best hope for David to make the final roster is for the Saints to select players at other positions in the draft."- Jeff Duncan, T-Pic 4/8/09
by stujo4 on Apr 23, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, it's not just Duncan
and it’s not just the Times-Picayune, either. I have seen this in newspapers at least since the advent of computerized composition—they seem to rely more on spell-check than on editors, and sometimes even the spell checking stage is skipped.
But in an online edition, when corrections can be made easily, quickly, and essentially cost-free, there’s no excuse for the kind of shoddy writing that is common on every news site. It comes down to this: bad writing can be excused on the grounds of objectivity; but even the most creative and compelling writing on blogs can never be good, because it lacks objectivity.
Sorry to ride this into the ground, but it’s a subject that I think is of greater importance than most other people do.
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
by MtnExile on Apr 23, 2009 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
it’s of huge importance. And, that point I won’t argue. It might not sound like it, but we’re on the same side that journalism needs to be better.
by Caffiend on Apr 23, 2009 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
uh oh
Duncan links to this article from his column today. Wonder how long that’ll stay on there?
"The best hope for David to make the final roster is for the Saints to select players at other positions in the draft."- Jeff Duncan, T-Pic 4/8/09
by stujo4 on Apr 23, 2009 11:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He probably reads worse from the people who post at nola.com
He did say this about CSC:
one of the best Saints blogs on the Internet
I don’t think he would have typed that if he didn’t mean it.
Go Saints!!!! Deuce may be gone, but he will never be forgotten.
by satchmo26 on Apr 23, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops! I did it again
Went to that page and read the comments. Someone suggested that Archie MUST be the best first-rounder in Saints history. “I mean, there’s no real competition, right?”
Yeah there is: Willie Roaf. Eleven Pro Bowls. An absolutely dominating beast of a player, and a slam-dunk Hall of Famer. Probably the Saints’ first, unless the voters come to their senses and send Rickey Jackson to the Hall before him.
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
by MtnExile on Apr 23, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did I write that?
I don’t think I did.
Willie Roaf was great. 4 seasons in KC, 4 pro bowls. I believe he has said that he will go into the NFL hall of fame as a Chief. I’ll stick with Archie.
"The best hope for David to make the final roster is for the Saints to select players at other positions in the draft."- Jeff Duncan, T-Pic 4/8/09
by stujo4 on Apr 23, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I jumped right into a discussion without saying it
But this is a very good interview, Dave. Looking forward to reading the second half.
by Dave the Falconer on Apr 23, 2009 11:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
See?
And Dave isn’t even A Professional Journalist. It can be done.
RE-SIGN LANCE MOORE!
by MtnExile on Apr 23, 2009 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course it can
And I certainly hope you don’t think I believe otherwise.
I’m pretty disillusioned with the business of being a Professional Journalist in the first place, but I also think it’s an industry that is actively resisting substantial change. Until that side of the house learns to embrace blogging and what it offers to readers—and actually understand what blogging is—it’s going to continue to be a stagnant industry.
by Dave the Falconer on Apr 23, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
are we at CSC not part of this and moving towards it more.
I think the best chance blogs will have is to pool their resources, form some kind of national blog network like the Associated Press and then develop and maintain a set of principles and standards that will stand up over time.
MT
by MT_always on Apr 23, 2009 11:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Great Stuff Dave
I would have expected a warnign, or some foreshadowing that this was coming, I feel pleasantly blind-sided
A few points
1. The fact that Jeff Duncan talked with you is a great thing. That fact that he didn’t even have Zepplin as a consideration for the number one….not a great thing. But it explains a lot.
2. It’s awesome that he posted the link to our wonderful world of Who Dat in his article. Period.
3. Mtn, I think Jeff is blaming the lost of ad revenues more to bad business than loss of readership. I don’t have any facts to back that up, but I would imagine that you could pull something up.
4. I do agree that no human being is truly objective. I also believe that, in theroy, journalist are usually directed(or supposed to be) toward being objective. While it doesn’t mean that they are, every Tom, Dick, and Harry on the internet isn’t bound by anything or anyone to output an objective piece. That fact alone gives more credit to a professional writer than a blogger. If you read most blogs, you’ll find out that they are garbage. I can’t blame anyone for kind of turning their noses up to blogs.
Now, that does not mean that just because you have a press pass, or work for a newspaper, or whatever the case may be , that others, INCLUDING bloggers, can not put together great pieces of journalism. The thoughts, views, and opinions of intelligent people can’t and shouldn’t be denied. Since this blog has links to just about every Saints article you can imagine, and intelligent opinions concerning them, I come here, not NOLA.com..or anywhere else for that matter. Sooner or later everyone will realize that this is a great type of outlet and advertising bucks will roll in.
Is it hypocritical of the blogging world to become the “AB”? Then you still have the problem of someone claiming to be an objective and “choosen” human.
looking forward to 2010
by asaint on Apr 23, 2009 12:16 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
rec just for...
Since this blog has links to just about every Saints article you can imagine, and intelligent opinions concerning them, I come here, not NOLA.com..or anywhere else for that matter.
MT
by MT_always on Apr 23, 2009 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't like
how duncan prefaces the link to CSC with “If you’re really bored…”
To me, that doesn’t seem very complimentary, despite his stating that this is one of the best saints blogs (but if you think all blogs are crap, then that means…?)
THAT is the big problem with “the” media—it’s this self-appointed monopoly on what’s important. I’m not trying to say that what journalists do is unimportant by any means, but by and large the journalism community looks down on blogs for the same reasons Jeff articulated. This is especially true in the political arena, where the criticisms may be a little more justified, but in the realm of sports—come on. How can you think that you need to be trained and schooled to be a sports authority?
Instead, I think Duncan should have said, “If you’re interested in a great resource for Saints news, information, and discussion, as well as a welcoming, open community for Saints fans, check out the amazing Canal Street Chronicles!”
…or he could’ve just skipped the “if you’re really incredibly bored and have no life at all and don’t really care about real news” line.
by jful on Apr 23, 2009 1:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The only thing I can say in Duncan’s defense (and I am not in the mood to defend him right now) is that he didn’t want to seem like he had a big head, recommending an interview with himself. I didn’t take it as a slight against CSC. He did call it one of the best Saints blogs on the Internet.
"The best hope for David to make the final roster is for the Saints to select players at other positions in the draft."- Jeff Duncan, T-Pic 4/8/09
by stujo4 on Apr 23, 2009 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I didnt take it as a slight at all.
If he had said .. Hey if you love me here check out this other place that wanted to talk to me too.. click here.
would that have been better?
MT
by MT_always on Apr 23, 2009 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
probably true
and i think it’s great that he was willing to do an interview with dave; maybe i’m reading too much into it
but i only happened to stumble upon this site, and it’s a shame more saints fans don’t know about it, so if i were the beat reporter i would definitely want to help foster an active, discursive community of fans, and therefore tout the best fan sites on the web.
but i’m not objective.
by jful on Apr 24, 2009 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs






















