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Stanley Arnoux: A Post-Draft Analysis

Apparently, while the Saints were scouting Aaron Curry, they discovered both Chip Vaughn and Stanley Arnoux. Vaughn seems to be exactly what Gregg Williams wanted at safety; but at first, Arnoux is a bit more of an enigma.

Unlike in the case of Vaughn, the problem evaluating Arnoux isn't that there's no immediately perceivable consensus; it's that there is. And the consensus is this: Stanley Arnoux is a high-motor overachiever who rated at best as a 7th round prospect, and more likely a free agent. Could the Saints have reached?

Star-divide

Positives: Short, squat frame to handle taking on and discarding blocks. … Plays with good overall physicality. … Reliable tackler between the hashes. … Flashes some pop as a hitter and can close in close quarters. … Better in coverage than his measureables indicate. … Gets surprising depth on his drops and reads the quarterback's eyes. … Team leader who made the Dean's list.

Negatives: Shorter than scouts would like and a bit round in the middle. … Lacks the instincts and quick first step preferred at the "Mike" 'backer position. … Takes a moment to recognize the action and is slow to flow toward the ball. … Lacks the straight-line speed to beat backs to the flanks and is a liability in coverage. … Lacks the lateral agility to consistently get around blockers in tight quarters, thus relying on his pop to disengage. … Needs an open lane to close when rushing the quarterback.

Projected round: 7-FA [Source: NFLDraftScout.com]
Strengths: Does a good job of reading and reacting quickly to the run; flashes a willingness to come up quickly to take on blockers aggressively at the line of scrimmage. When quick and aggressive with his hands, can keep the blocker from getting a hold of him. Does a good job of chasing down running plays between the tackles. In zone coverage, does a good job of reading the QB and can close quickly on passes in front of him to make tackles right after the catch.

Weaknesses: Is a one-speed runner who lacks athleticism...Does not show any quickness or burst chasing after the ballcarrier and makes almost all of his tackles down the field...Lacks the playing speed to stay with the tight end consistently in man coverage and lacks the awareness to anticipate routes, so he loses his man out of his cut too often.

Bottom line: ...We would not draft him, but we would sign him as a free agent because he has a chance to make it as a backup, though he will struggle to carve out a long NFL career. [Source: Sporting News]
Strengths: Excellent timed speed...Physical...Active with a great motor...Very tough...Can take on blockers...Intense and competitive...Nice special teams potential...Durable...Experienced...Hard worker...Team leader.

Weaknesses: Average athleticism...Does not have the ideal size or bulk that you look for...Isn't very instinctive...Hips aren't fluid and struggles in coverage...Has trouble in space...Isn't real stout...Misses some tackles.

Notes: ...Won't be a good fit for every team...Could compete for a roster spot as a backup and special teamer. [Source: DraftCountdown.com]
Strengths: Arnoux is a physical inside linebacker that thrives between the tackles. He is not afraid to mix it up near the line of scrimmage and shows the ability to disengage from blockers to make the tackle. He plays bigger than his size would indicate and shows the speed to make plays up and down the line of scrimmage. Arnoux shows some ability in coverage as well. He has no problems dropping back and does a good job of keeping his man in front of him and preventing him from making the play. Arnoux has some experience at both inside and outside linebacker, and could be a solid special teamer.

Weaknesses: Arnoux is short and a bit light in the pants for a linebacker, especially a true inside backer. He has some experience outside but may lack the overall athleticism and agility to project there. Arnoux is a bit hesitant in diagnosing the action and needs to be more decisive and aggressive.

Future Arnoux has the ability to be a backup in different linebacker roles along with providing a boost to the special teams. That versatility should allow him to till out the bottom of a roster, giving him the chance to prove himself as a starter down the line. He really made a name for himself with a 4.61 40 at the combine, but he does not show that type of speed on the field. That performance should make him a draftable player, but his upside in the NFL may be limited. [Source: Football's Future]

You have to wonder if the Saints didn't commit a serious reach with this pick. It's doubtful that Arnoux would have been taken before their original last pick, in the seventh round. But apparently they saw something in Arnoux that they liked enough that they didn't want to take the chance that anyone else had seen the same thing.

What was it?

 

As with Vaughn earlier, let's look at who Gregg Williams had playing for him in earlier days. The first thing to note is that, while Arnoux played middle linebacker in college, he's slated to be moved to weakside linebacker on the Saints. When Williams was defensive coordinator at Tennessee, two of the linebackers he had in that position were Joe Bowden and Eddie Robinson. In Washington, Williams used four different linebackers in that position, including Lemar Marshall (2004), LaVar Arrington (2005), Warrick Holdman (2005 & 2006), and Rocky McIntosh (2007). None of these players is significantly different in physical terms from either Arnoux or incumbent starter Scott Shanle—with the exception of Arrington, who at 6-3 and 256 was by far the biggest of the bunch. He was also the player who most incurred Williams' ire (though not, admittedly, because of his size).

The difference may be speed. Scott Shanle ran a 4.72 40 at his Combine in 2003; by contrast, Arnoux is significantly faster. He had the third-fastest time among inside linebackers at 4.56, a time that would have put him in 6th place among the outside linebackers—better than Clay Matthews, Brian Cushing, or Clint Sintim, and nearly as fast as his teammate Aaron Curry.

Rocky McIntosh (4.6), LaVar Arrington (4.54), and Lemar Marshall (4.48) were all faster than Shanle, and in Arnoux's range. (I haven't been able to find Combine results for the Tennessee players.) Since Williams' defense employs an attacking system, we know that speed is essential, and Arnoux does have that. But is it enough to make a difference?

Now, consider what both the Saints and Arnoux's college coach have said about him. In an interview with the Times-Picayune

[Wake Forest head coach Jim] Grobe raved about new Saints linebacker Stanley Arnoux, who played inside in college but projects as a weakside linebacker with the Saints. He said in several games last year, Arnoux was "every bit as good, if not better than Aaron Curry."

He said Curry's a little smaller and faster, and Arnoux is a little more physical. He said Arnoux trimmed down to run fast in predraft workouts, but he played at around 240-245 pounds in college.

"He plays very physical and he's the most dependable guy in the world," Grobe said of Arnoux, saying he always played through any bumps and bruises.

Sean Payton, in his typically laconic way, backed up Grobe:

"When you watch Curry or you watch film of Wake, you see Stanley Arnoux. He's the kind of guy you see make a lot of plays. He's around the ball often. Those are good traits to have certainly as a linebacker."

Finally, consider what Arnoux has to say about himself:

"I was a Dean's List student at Wake Forest, and I bring that into the football game."

Tough, fast, smart, and a coach's player. Those are the kind of qualities Williams reportedly prizes in his players. So it looks as though Stanley Arnoux was very much a Gregg Williams-type of pick, and another step in the resurgence of the Saints' defense. Could the Saints have reached? If no other team recognized those qualities in Arnoux, then certainly: we may have been able to get him with our 7th round pick. But if the Saints are correct in what they think they see in him, the risk was too great; and besides, Payton and Loomis were simply following their board. Time will tell who was right; but until they're proven wrong, I'm going to assume that PayLoo made another great mid-round pick.

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great write-up

But I wanted to comment on whether or not he’s a “reach”—sure, he may have been available later (when we didn’t have any draft picks) and these draft sites may have predicted him to go later, but what kind of authority are they, really, in terms of when players are going to be drafted? Obviously we didn’t think he was 7th round talent—or else we wouldn’t have him graded in the 4th-5th round range. That’s exactly the range (4th) the OLB Jonathan Casillas was graded before the draft—and we got him as an undrafted free agent. Rashad Jennings is another example of someone who was thought to be a 3rd-round talent, but he didn’t get picked until about 5 spots away from Mr. Irrelevant.

So the scouting reports teams make are obviously very different from those made by the actual NFL teams; I’m not trying to suggest these draftniks have no idea what they’re talking about…but for the most part they don’t. Beyond the first-second round, it’s a really big crapshoot in terms of who’s going to be successful at the NFL level. I think Arnoux could really develop into a great player, but maybe he won’t—and maybe history will show this to be a bad pick. However, I’m not going to write him off because of the generalities these sites write about EVERY pick (do you notice how recycled the descriptions are of basically every player?), and instead I put my faith in the Saints’ ability to evaluate talent and make good decisions.

We needed an OLB in this draft, and we got an experienced, accomplished college baller who’s coming in with minimal expectations—plus it’s the 4th round, not the 1st. Granted, Jahri Evans was a 4th rounder, but even if he can earn a spot on the roster and play on special teams, it’s a good pickup in my opinion

by jful on Apr 28, 2009 1:54 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

I think I use "reach" differently from the draftniks

…though maybe not. As I understand it, they define a “reach” as taking someone sooner than he’s rated. As I define it, it’s taking someone sooner than you have to. The difference is subtle, but it’s there. If we had known that Chicago, picking right after us, was going to take Arnoux, then we drafted him in exactly the right spot, no matter what anyone says. On the other hand, if we knew for certain that nobody intended on taking Arnoux, we could have traded away, or used our 7th rounder to take him, and used our 4th rounder on someone else. The problem is: we can’t know for certain either of those things; and besides, as you pointed out, we had him rated a 4th-round prospect. I think PayLoo were loyal to their board, and did their usual fine job of picking up mid-round talent. I can honestly say I don’t think there’s a finer draft tandem in the league when it comes to the lower half of the draft.

here drink some of this kool-aid don't worry it won't hurt you...

by MtnExile on Apr 28, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed

And my comment was more about how these sites think they know what they’re talking about when they say he’s going to be a 7th rounder— or that Jennings is going to be gone by the 4th, etc. Again, I really liked your post and I didn’t mean to seem critical of you—just of these draft scouting sites that think they’re the ultimate authority.

by jful on Apr 29, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing wrong with criticism

…just didn’t express myself well enough the first time.

here drink some of this kool-aid don't worry it won't hurt you...

by MtnExile on Apr 29, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Love the article and the first comment

Sometimes tangibles only matter so much. I like this guys intangibles

looking forward to 2010

by asaint on Apr 28, 2009 2:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

rec'd and buzzed it up AGAIN

M-E, you can really tell a story. For a second there, I thought you were going to say that Arnoux is just like but not really like Arrington. HA! Good work, we are lucky to have you writing for us.

Restore the wetlands!

by stujo4 on Apr 28, 2009 3:26 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

It would be a good thing for us if he's NOT like Arrington

Gregg Williams didn’t much like Arrington. And, erm…thanks…[blush]

here drink some of this kool-aid don't worry it won't hurt you...

by MtnExile on Apr 28, 2009 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, when you suck, you’ll hear about it.

Restore the wetlands!

by stujo4 on Apr 28, 2009 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yup Yup

I look forward to all of your posts, M.E.

You too Dave… lol!

I am the Stig

by Hollywoo! on Apr 28, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i love our writers

everyone of them but especially ME and Dave. They dip their ink in pure Saints love and inspiration. They are willing to go that extra 100 miles just to bring you back an Ice cream cone and still manage to keep it cold(in other words, they’re like Superman and Batman except in writing). I think all the ppl that do fanshots/posts do a great job though. When I do my first one, I hope it goes as well as everyone else’s. There’s always plenty of details and tidbits you might notice at first.

Superbowl bound!!!...I hope? Go Saints! :D

by skinnykinney on Apr 28, 2009 5:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You did realize we keeping track on the meter, didn't you?

here drink some of this kool-aid don't worry it won't hurt you...

by MtnExile on Apr 28, 2009 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Arnoux...

he seems like the perfect GW guy. He’s fast and intense, but most of all, he’ll probably be one of the smartest guys on the field. I think thats why the Saints decided he was important enough to use a 4th rder on him. I was a little shocked with the pick, but the more I read, the more I like. I think he has some definte inmersurable qualities.

"For us, there is no spring... only the smell of fresh wind before the storm."
-Conan of Cimeria

by tlsk1066 on Apr 28, 2009 5:50 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

dean's list

that’s impressive… while playing football is even more impressive. i like what im reading on this guy. from the clips posted earlier, he seems like a great pass coverage LB which is a welcomed addition to our defense. i’m starting to get really excited about our new defensive make over and i can’t wait for training camp and the preseason games.

by nanvinnie on Apr 29, 2009 10:07 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Great pick...

….I’ve been watching Arnoux a good deal the past few years, as Wake Forest is the closest “major college” with a notable football team (we have NC A&T here in Greensboro, but…well…they stopped counting before I moved here…) to where I live.

Arnoux REMINDS ME OF (please pay close attention to that statement, I do not think he is “the second coming of”) a former Saint that we all loved back in the day: Sam Mills.

He’s “too small” and he’s “too slow” to draw a lot of scouting attention, but he has all the qualities Mills put on the field:

Lots of character
Smart
Quick
Hits like a ton of bricks

Probably the best pick of the ’09 draft, because he will produce for the team.

by GSO Saints Fan on Apr 29, 2009 10:15 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

In the original version of this story

I closed by mentioning Sam Mills, and how people told him he was wasting his time trying to make it in the NFL. Wrong: he’s had his jersey retired by two teams!

I cut that part out, because I decided it was premature. We really don’t know if Arnoux has the same kind of character and drive that Mills did; but GSO’s point remains: he’s got at least the physical gifts that Mills did, so there’s no reason he can’t excel if he wants it enough.

And I’m gratified to see that someone who has actually been watching Arnoux thought of Mills. That bodes well. Dome Patrol 2?

here drink some of this kool-aid don't worry it won't hurt you...

by MtnExile on Apr 29, 2009 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

sorry I was being a punk

Jealous of the fine work you’ve turned in recently.

The Saints don’t retire numbers. The two they retired are back in use. Neither was Mills’.
wikipedia:

* 31 Jim Taylor (officially retired, but is assigned to active players)
    * 81 Doug Atkins (officially retired, but is assigned to active players)
The number 8 has not been officially retired, but has not been issued to any Saints player since Archie Manning was traded to the Houston Oilers in September 1982.

Here are some lowbrows arguing about it.

Restore the wetlands!

by stujo4 on Apr 29, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In the latest episode of "Don't Trust Wikipedia"

You’d think I’d learn…but I go back every time.

Mills’ number 51 was retired by the Panthers and Saints at the start of the 2005 NFL season.

here drink some of this kool-aid don't worry it won't hurt you...

by MtnExile on Apr 29, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It happens to all of us…

I would like to hope that it will be a decade or two off yet, but Brees definitely deserves to have his retired when he does.

And as soon as Deuce is officially retired (and we’re sure he’s not going to pull a Brett on us) then 26 definitely should be retired. My dream scenario here is that he comes back to the team and helps out in some way so that he earns a ring, and then we could retire it during the SB victory parade…

by FriarBob on Apr 29, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

pull a Brett

Dont make me dislike you….

The baby retired and then cried for his job back

Duece never wanted to leave. Saints brass cut him.

They have nothing in common other then they both played football.. One is a outstanding man who gave his all for a team.. one is a crybaby who didnt know what he wanted.

MT

by MT_always on Apr 29, 2009 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, no offense intended. But he was the only recent example I could think of of somebody who retired and then unretired and then retired and then… not sure yet but probably unretires again… sigh

by FriarBob on Apr 29, 2009 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not to say that Deuce would retire and return and retire… but he would like to [have left] and come back… and then eventually leave on his own terms. I too strongly expect he’d be much more dignified about the whole process, though.

by FriarBob on Apr 29, 2009 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hail Yeah!

God bless Sam Mills. I loved that guy. And let’s not forget Sammy Knight who was also told that he was too small, too dumb, too slow.

by Tigernut on Apr 29, 2009 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He does...

…want it enough.

He’s probably one of the most driven dudes I’ve seen on a football field. He was overshadowed (unfairly, IMO) by Aaron Curry – a guy with tremendous natural talent, to be sure, but not the drive and smarts that Arnoux has.

That was the sleeper pick of the draft, not just for the Saints, but potentially for the entire draft. I’m THAT high on Arnoux.

by GSO Saints Fan on Apr 30, 2009 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It wouldn't surprise me

The Saints have done phenomenally well under Payton and Loomis at finding sleepers among low draft picks and free agents. If Arnoux is our next gem…so much the better.

(I also have high hopes for Jonathan Casillas as a 230-pound strong safety. But that’s just me.)

here drink some of this kool-aid don't worry it won't hurt you...

by MtnExile on Apr 30, 2009 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

wouldn't be unfair

if we have the #1 offense along with a dominating defense? it’d be unfair, but i’d be in saints heaven!

by nanvinnie on Apr 29, 2009 10:41 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

What true Saints fan wouldn’t?

by FriarBob on Apr 29, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hope everything works out for the Saints I will be very confident to say that we’re going to the playoffs this year and who knows Superbowl (crossing fingers and toes)

by SBookerSaintsFan on Apr 29, 2009 11:17 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

WTF SAINTS DRAFTS!!!

Payton’s Saints need to be relegated to one first round pick and only 5th – 7th round picks thereafter. They need to trade down from the 2nd and 3rd rounds. And if they magically got 2 first rounders, trade down from there.

From late rounds they can draft all the peeps they “discover” while looking at good players.

by xen-cuts on Apr 29, 2009 11:55 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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