CSC All-Time Saints Team Nominations: Linebacker
by Saintsational on Jun 15, 2009 6:00 AM CDT
in CSC All-Time Saints Team
31 comments
We continue on now with our all-time Saints team selection process and come to the linebacker position. But this is an interesting point in our quest for the best. We all know that as a unit, the Dome Patrol was the greatest linebacking corp in NFL history and they didn't achieve such great success without the marvelous play of Rickey Jackson, Sam Mills, Vaughan Johnson and Pat Swilling. We can also probably agree there is a good chance that all four of these players would be chosen for our team if we continued on the old-fashioned way. So the question automatically becomes: Should Rickey Jackson, Sam Mills, Vaughan Johnson and Pat Swilling automatically be selected to CSC's All-Time Saints team as a unit?
In the interest of not only saving us all a lot of time but of also sparking some good debate, I would like to conduct a simple poll. If you think that we should automatically place all four members of the Dome Patrol on CSC's All-Time Saints Team go ahead and let us know. Or if you think other players like Renaldo Turnbull and Jonathan Vilma should have a chance and the fair thing to do would be continue on, as we have with every other position, and hold separate elections for all four spots let your voice be heard.
I think this is an interesting topic and should make for some good conversation. You may begin that conversation...now.
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I would really like Vilma to make it on the team… but despite just how good he was last year it was only one year. If we were doing this next offseason hopefully I would want to change my vote, but for now it’s dome patrol.
by FriarBob on Jun 15, 2009 7:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
one at a time
There aren’t a ton of great players at the position, but there are a several that I feel deserve consideration. Jonathan Vilma, Mark Fields, Keith Mitchell, Jack Del Rio, Darion Conner, Winfred Tubbs, Renaldo Turnbull, Dirt Winston, Doc Kovach, Joe Federspiel and Steve Stonebreaker are the ones that immediately come to mind. Personally, I don’t think Vaughan Johnson over Federspiel would be the slam dunk most people make it out to be.
by coldpizza on Jun 15, 2009 8:05 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
meathead was the hardest hitting lb ever
while i respect the lbs you mention,i also think johnson’s role in the dome patrol is under rated. he was the hammer, running backs feared him, many of the sacks ricky and pat got was because of his dominant play in the middle, forcing pass plays on 3rd and short. they are like the mt. rushmore of linebacking cores,and i don’t take lightly anyone trying to grind one of the faces off.
by r c a on Jun 15, 2009 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Testify!!!
they are like the mt. rushmore of linebacking cores,and i don’t take lightly anyone trying to grind one of the faces off.
Who IS the Stig?
by Hollywoo! on Jun 15, 2009 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think...
that makes teddy Roosevelt the vaughan johnson of presidents.
by r c a on Jun 15, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree
that they were the best four as a unit. That doesn’t mean they were necessarily the four best LBs to ever play for the Saints. Case in point, arguably the greatest defensive line of all-time is the Los Angeles Rams’ “Fearsome Foursome”. As a cohesive unit they terrorized opposing backfields for years. Yet, only Deacon Jones and Merlin Olsen are members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Were Rosey Grier and Lamar Lundy considerably less effective than those two? No, not at all. They were all comparable in talent level and complimented one another exceptionally well the entire time they played together. That being said, if you were naming an all-time Rams team, should Grier and Lundy automatically be penciled into the lineup based on that chemistry? If your answer is yes, I would think those familiar with Jack Youngblood and Larry Brooks would beg to differ. Whose faces you have etched on YOUR “Mt. Rushmore” really should have no bearing on who I’M given the opportunity to vote on. Especially when it’s not an open and shut case — at least to those old enough to have actually seen them all play — as to who the best individual LBs were. Judged exclusively within their own era, of course.
by coldpizza on Jun 15, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree also
i have vaughan in my top three saints lbs of all time, not because he was in the dome patrol,on my list, ricky is one , sam is two, vaughan is three, pat is about 6 or 7 ,with guys like tubbs, stonebreaker,and feilds ahead of him. i think swilling didn’t play the run well enough, but it’s a close call, so if any face was to be ground off it should be pat’s,in my opinion,but i stiil think all four should go,because someone will be left out any way.
by r c a on Jun 15, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
another guy
I forgot to mention is Bryan Cox. He wasn’t a Saint for very long, but the guy had an exceptional NFL career.
by coldpizza on Jun 16, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Best LB corps ever
NFL Network, in one of their many “Top 10” shows listed the Dome Patrol as the best LB corps ever. I’m not saying we should let their rating influence our decision, but it’s hard to argue against their rating. I support the election of the entire unit, even though there are others deserving of consideration. The Dome Patrol are one of the few bright spots in Saints history. These guys were good individually, but as a unit, they were ass-kickin’ great.
Go Saints!!!! Deuce may be gone, but he will never be forgotten.
by satchmo26 on Jun 15, 2009 9:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ass-kickin' great
The chemistry they had together is just as important as any other factor to me. I don’t believe it would be possible to put together an all-star unit that could conceivably play better than the Dome Patrol did. Vilma, Fields, and Turnbull are all deserving of consideration too; but somebody deserving is going to wind up being left out, anyway. I vote for the unit.
This is OUR year!
by MtnExile on Jun 15, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dome Patrol
Maybe you should watch this clip before voting. Fields and Vilma should be mentioned but then again Vilma has only one year so far.
by J Rock on Jun 15, 2009 2:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
NO QUESTION
the dome patrol is the obvious choice. nothing against fields, vilma, and turbull (which i think would be the only others for consideration) but those guys got us to 10-6 and 11-5 records on thier own. i’m also bias b/c they are my first real memeories of the saints, so take it for what its worth. no worries vilma will be there one day.
by sernycrusher on Jun 15, 2009 5:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The only real problem
is that the Dome Patrol was a 3-4 unit. Choosing them as a unit in effect canonizes the 3-4 on our all-time team. If we want to pick an alternative 4-3 team, then Jackson and Fields are the logical outside backers…but who do you go with inside? The Panthers also played a 3-4 during Mills’ tenure, so I don’t know that he ever played a 4-3 in the pros. So do you go with Vilma, or reach WAAAAAYYY back for someone like Federspiel? (My opinion: Vilma. I don’t care if it’s only one year so far, I was never much of a Joe Fed fan.)
This is OUR year!
by MtnExile on Jun 15, 2009 6:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Our poll has 90%
for the automatic inducting of the Dome Patrol. That’s pretty unanimous.
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by Saintsational on Jun 15, 2009 6:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I was going to vote to consider others
but reading coldpizza’s list above made me throw up in my mouth a little bit. The thought of any of those guys being in over the dome patrol makes no sense.
Shout out for Tubbs though – hook ’em! I saw him play a game in college at FB where he had about 150 yards rushing…
by SaintBevo on Jun 15, 2009 7:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it's safe to say
that Dempsey66 was right about the general cut off point of knowledge in this group being circa the Jim Mora era. How anyone with familiarity beyond that could mention Fields and Turnbull as being worthy of all-time great consideration among Saints LBs and NOT Joe Federspiel is mind boggling to me. Especially when these same people laud the guard play of Jake Kupp. How can someone even begin to know something about an interior offensive lineman (one of the least visible positions in all of football), yet be seemingly oblivious to arguably the best Saints defensive player of roughly the same era? That’s (extremely) comparable to someone mentioning voting for Jim Dombrowski and NOT Sam Mills.
by coldpizza on Jun 15, 2009 9:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
On the other hand
as I said, I was never much of a Joe Fed fan. And he played during the same era as Tommy Myers, so he definitely wasn’t the best defensive player during that period. I think Bob Pollard and Derland Moore deserve mention before Federspiel, too. Nor was Federspiel remotely as good as players such as Fields from other eras.
But yeah…Dempsey63 was right. That’s just the way the world is.
This is OUR year!
by MtnExile on Jun 16, 2009 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's arguable
I loved all the guys you just mentioned. All of them — with the exception of Pollard — are members of the Saints HOF and for good reason. I do agree with you that Federspiel wasn’t as good as Fields in a head-to-head comparison. Of course, that’s not the way anyone should be comparing players from different eras. You compare them to their peers from other teams within the era. And at the same position, since OLBs and ILBs aren’t exactly an apple-to-apple match to begin with. In that light, I think they’re very comparable. Both team leaders, dynamic at their respective positions, admittedly mediocre in the big picture. And I think that’s roughly what you’re talking about with Vaughan Johnson, as well. No disrespect intended, but Pepper Johnson and Seth Joyner were just as talented and successful individual LBs from the Dome Patrol era. Those aren’t exactly Canton shoo-ins either. Sorry about the 66 suffix, btw. You’re right, Dempsey gets his “kicks” on Route 63.
by coldpizza on Jun 16, 2009 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
correction
Pollard’s in the Saints HOF, too. Not sure what I was thinking there. Probably of Conrad Dobler, who came over in the trade for Pollard w/ the Cardinals.
by coldpizza on Jun 16, 2009 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think people realize
I don’t know how many people realize how good the defense was before the dome patrol. Though not as good, they can’t be overlooked. The ones who often get overlooked were Dirt Winston and Jim Kovach. If I remember correctly, the defense was always ranked in the top 5 when Bun Phillips was the coach.
by lvsaint on Jun 15, 2009 10:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Welcome to CSC!!!
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by Saintsational on Jun 15, 2009 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm wondering
if Chuck Muncie and Tony Galbreath should be automatically elected to the CSC together, as they’re clearly the best RB/FB backfield combo we’ve ever had. I mean, Deuce and Lorenzo Neal sounds pretty formidable on paper, I’d just hate to grind either one of the faces off our awe-inspiring Thunder and Lightning statue. Peanut Butter and Lightning? Heck nope, doesn’t work. There was just too much chemistry between those two. Besides, someone is going to get left out anyway. Might as well be someone I’d never vote for.
by coldpizza on Jun 16, 2009 1:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Why don't we put it to a vote?
And if 90% of the fans say ‘yes,’ then ‘yes’ it is.
My own vote would be ‘no.’ Make that ‘hell, no.’ Muncie was good, never great. George Rogers and Hokie Gajan were just as good…they just didn’t have a cool nickname.
I understand the point you’re trying to make: you don’t like electing units. Okay, point made. On to the next position…
This is OUR year!
by MtnExile on Jun 16, 2009 8:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said
Muncie was great. The only truly “great” RBs (career-wise) we’ve ever had were washed-up players from other teams. Quite a few very good ones though, both Deuce and Chuck included. I agree with you that Rogers was better than Muncie, but not Gajan over Galbreath. Not by a longshot, actually. Galbreath was far more versatile a player. He led the team in rushing one season and was typically among the top two or three in receptions. Gajan was a solid lead blocker and had good speed for a guy his size, but I think much of his popularity stems from his unusual nickname and the fact that he attended school in Baton Rouge. All in all, he wasn’t that much better player than Buford Jordan, imo. He had one brilliant run against the Bucs, where he appeared to be heading out of bounds, cut and raced down the sidelines. That and some tough inside running is about all I remember of Hokie with the ball in his hands. Put it this way, I’d vote for Galbreath over Gajan in a heartbeat. And Muncie/Galbreath over any same year Saints HB/FB combination you can come up with.
But you’re right, I was primarily trying to make a point against electing units. I’m with you, let’s put it to a vote. Let’s propose a DB unit and put that to a vote, too. Not because they’re necessarily the best individual players at their position (the lone counterpoint you raised), but rather for the time it would save us all. Seriously, we could knock this whole election process out in less than a month. Because Lord knows there are more important matters we should be addressing on a football blog in the middle of June.
by coldpizza on Jun 16, 2009 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm all for
voting individually for linebackers, especially if it means an extra victory lap for the individual members of the dome patrol. But I would really rather not be subjected to a avalanche or posts explaining how we should consider Mark Fields or Darion Conner. Are you kidding me??? You want to talk about Joe Federspiel? I can live with that, but Keith Mitchell or Renaldo Turnbull? I don’t think so
by SaintBevo on Jun 16, 2009 10:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i love the patrol but seriously
mark fields was part of a consistent d that put up 55+ sacks a year not to even bring it up as it has became my battle cry but jimmys crew put up 66 in 2000 with fields leading the way at the middle! rickey without a doubt! johnson no question, but if were voting in best regaurdless of position than i honestly submit mark fields for serious consideration!
Dome Patrol meet drew n company, new orleans meet super bowl glory
by SaintCeasar on Jun 17, 2009 3:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
what do you mean
by “leading the way in the middle”? Fields was both a left and right OLB. He never played inside, domed roof wisecracks excluded.
by coldpizza on Jun 17, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know sacks aren't the end-all be-all
but here’s Fields’ sack totals from 1996-2000 (the years he started most of the games): 2, 8, 6, 4, 2
For comparison:
Swilling 1987-1992: 10.5, 7, 16.5, 11, 17, 10.5
Jackson 1987-1992: 9.5, 7, 7.5, 6, 11.5, 13.5
nuff said
by SaintBevo on Jun 17, 2009 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
excuse me, i change my vote
I have researched further the stats and see the light! Dave please consider the vote for other considerations taken back, the patrol has alwasy been the best and deserves to take up all available all team spots. thanx coldpizza for positional correction(pun appreciated) and thanx bevo for the facts, growing up an 80s child i never fully appreciated what pat swilling did for the team but looking at his monster career totals and pairing it with rickey and vaughn theres no wonder the patrol will always remain the number one linbakcer troop of all time.
I was comming into full appreciation around the ditka age and fields was my hero, so my vote was solely based out of adoration not statistical merit. thank you gentlemen
Dome Patrol meet drew n company, new orleans meet super bowl glory
by SaintCeasar on Jun 19, 2009 2:15 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's all good
when looking up the numbers for swilling during that 6 year run, even I (who had season tickets and went to many of those games) was in awe. Those are crazy numbers
by SaintBevo on Jun 19, 2009 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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