CSC All-Time Saints Team: Defensive End No. 1
by Dave Cariello on Jun 2, 2009 6:00 AM CDT
in CSC All-Time New Orleans Saints Team
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Before we move on and start discussing the all-time great defensive ends who've worn the black and gold, let's acknowledge the first member elected to CSC's All-Time Saints Team, wide receiver Joe Horn. "Hollywood" surprisingly edged out Eric Martin in the voting this weekend but Martin lovers will still have a chance to elect him in the near future for that second receiver spot.
We're going to switch gears now and change over to the defensive side of the ball. It's time to start talking about the greatest defensive ends to ever play for the Saints.
Below is a list of players I've researched and deemed worthy of inclusion in our discussion of great Saints defensive ends. Stats for this position are scarce so decisions will inevitably come down to more than just numbers. One of two of these players, Jim Wilks in particular, were versatile and also played significant time as a tackle. They will also be included for consideration when we get to the tackle position for our all-time team.
The poll will open at 6am Central tomorrow morning and will be open for exactly 48 hours, ending on Friday, June 5tth. Remember again that we will hold a separate election for the second defensive end position.
I now open it up for discussion. If there are any other nominations or players that you just can't believe I missed, let it be known in the comment section. I would also love to hear some personal rumination from our readers who've actually watched these guys plays.
| Saints Career Statistics | |||||
| Year | Games | Sacks | Int | ||
| 1999 | 16 | 4.5 | -- | ||
| 1998 | 16 | 3.0 | -- | ||
| 1997 | 16 | 10.5 | -- | ||
| 1996 | 16 | 11.0 | -- | ||
| 1995 | 16 | 13.0 | 1 | ||
| 1994 | 16 | 10.0 | -- | ||
| 1993 | 16 | 5.0 | -- | ||
| 1992 | 16 | 15.5 | -- | ||
| 1991 | 16 | 3.5 | -- | ||
| 1990 | 11 | 4.0 | -- | ||
| 1989 | 16 | 2.5 | -- | ||
| Total | 171 | 82.5 | 1 | ||
Wayne Martin
Height: 6'5"
Weight: 275
D.O.B.: 10/26/1965
College:Arkansas
NFL Experience: 11 Seasons
Seasons with Saints: 1989-1999
Notables: Second most (82.5) career sacks with Saints. Fourth(15.5) and seventh(13.0) most single season sacks with Saints.
| Saints Career Statistics | |||||
| Year | Games | Sacks | Int | ||
| 1996 | 12 | 6.5 | -- | ||
| 1995 | 15 | 7.0 | -- | ||
| 1994 | 16 | 6.5 | -- | ||
| 1993 | 15 | 13.0 | 1 | ||
| 1992 | 14 | 1.5 | -- | ||
| 1991 | 16 | 1.0 | -- | ||
| 1990 | 16 | 9.0 | -- | ||
| Total | 104 | 44.5 | 1 | ||
Renaldo Turnbull
Height: 6'4"
Weight: 250
D.O.B.: 1/5/1966
College: West Virginia
NFL Experience: 8 Seasons
Seasons with Saints: 1990-1996
Notables:Seventh most(13.0) single season sacks with Saints. Eighth (tie) most (44.5) career sacks with Saints.
| Saints Career Statistics | |||||
| Year | Games | Sacks | Int | ||
| 2005 | 12 | 3.5 | -- | ||
| 2004 | 13 | 11.0 | -- | ||
| 2003 | 8 | 5.0 | -- | ||
| 2002 | 16 | 8.0 | -- | ||
| 2001 | 16 | 6.0 | 1 | ||
| 2000 | 16 | 11.0 | 1 | ||
| Total | 81 | 44.5 | 2 | ||
Darren Howard
Height: 6'3"
Weight: 260
D.O.B.: 11/19/1976
College: Kansas State
NFL Experience: 10 Seasons
Seasons with Saints: 2000-2005
Notables: Eighth (tie) most (44.5) career sacks with Saints.
| Saints Career Statistics | |||||
| Year | Games | Sacks | Int | ||
| 1969 | 14 | N/S | N/S | ||
| 1968 | 11 | N/S | N/S | ||
| 1967 | 14 | N/S | N/S | ||
| Total | 39 | N/S | N/S | ||
Doug Atkins
Height: 6'8"
Weight: 257
D.O.B. 5/8/1930
College: Tennessee
NFL Experience: 17 Seasons
Seasons with Saints: 1967-1969
Notables: Elected into Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1982.
| Saints Career Statistics | |||||
| Year | Games | Sacks | Int | ||
| 1993 | 8 | -- | -- | ||
| 1992 | 12 | 4.0 | -- | ||
| 1991 | 16 | 2.0 | -- | ||
| 1990 | 15 | 5.5 | -- | ||
| 1989 | 16 | 4.0 | -- | ||
| 1988 | 16 | 3.5 | -- | ||
| 1987 | 12 | 5.5 | -- | ||
| 1986 | 16 | 1.0 | -- | ||
| 1985 | 16 | 2.5 | -- | ||
| 1984 | 11 | 7.5 | -- | ||
| 1983 | 16 | 8.0 | -- | ||
| 1982 | 8 | 2.0 | -- | ||
| 1981 | 16 | -- | -- | ||
| Total | 178 | 45.5 | -- | ||
Jim Wilks
Height: 6'5"
Weight: 252
D.O.B.: 3/12/1958
College: San Diego State
NFL Experience: 13 Seasons
Seasons with Saints: 1981-1993
Notables: Seventh most career sacks (45.5) with Saints.
| Saints Career Statistics | |||||
| Year | Games | Sacks | Int | ||
| 2001 | 16 | 9.0 | -- | ||
| 2000 | 16 | 12.0 | -- | ||
| 1999 | 0 | -- | -- | ||
| 1998 | 16 | 7.0 | -- | ||
| 1997 | 16 | 8.5 | -- | ||
| 1996 | 13 | 7.5 | -- | ||
| 1995 | 14 | 5.5 | -- | ||
| 1994 | 15 | 1.0 | -- | ||
| Total | 106 | 50.5 | -- | ||
Joe Johnson
Height: 6'4"
Weight: 275
D.O.B.: 7/11/1972
College: Louisville
NFL Experience: 10 Seasons
Seasons with Saints: 1994-2001
Notables:Fifth most career sacks (50.5) with Saints.
| Saints Career Statistics | |||||
| Year | Games | Sacks | Int | ||
| 1994 | 16 | 4.0 | -- | ||
| 1993 | 8 | 1.0 | -- | ||
| 1992 | 16 | 4.0 | -- | ||
| 1991 | 16 | 7.0 | -- | ||
| 1989 | 16 | 9.5 | -- | ||
| 1988 | 16 | 1.0 | -- | ||
| 1987 | 12 | 6.0 | -- | ||
| 1986 | 16 | 7.5 | -- | ||
| 1985 | 16 | 5.5 | -- | ||
| 1984 | 16 | 4.0 | -- | ||
| 1983 | 16 | 2.0 | 1 | ||
| 1982 | 9 | 1.0 | -- | ||
| 1981 | 16 | -- | -- | ||
| Total | 189 | 52.5 | 1 | ||
Frank Warren
Height: 6'4"
Weight: 290
D.O.B.: 9/14/1959
College: Auburn
NFL Experience: 13 Seasons
Seasons with Saints: 1981-1994
Notables: Fourth most career sacks (52.5) with Saints.
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The poll is tomorrow
6am. Be there.
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by Dave Cariello on Jun 2, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
You mean Joe Jackson
And there was another Joe Jackson who was, ironically, a defensive end. Just not for New Orleans.
This is OUR year!
And then we can name Jack Johnson and Jackson Browne
Some other similarly named musicians
"Knock 'em the (- -) out!" - G Dub
We need a defensive end named
Engelbert Humperdinck. Just to clear up all the confusion.
This is OUR year!
Stop it!
My mom would go wild with a vacuum cleaner and some Engelbert on the turn table.
Just get the D going!
Wayne Martin
My vote would be for Wayne Martin. I remember watching this guy and can remember him almost always being in the backfield getting after the QB. He had a motor that never quit. Statistically he shined with an average of 7.5 sacks a season, but the real stat here is 11 years with our team and he only missed 5 games. He was obviously very productive, and reliable as well (171 games out of 176 as a Saint). And you know he had to be playing with pain. Nobody plays 11 seasons of pro ball and stays immune to injuries so in those 11 years, (with the exception of 5 games) he took the field no matter what injuries he may have had and played his heart out. I vote definitely Wayne for first choice DE.
Nobody has any other suggestions?
I’ve listed every great defensive end to ever play for the Saints?
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Looks like the Saints have a thin history when it comes to DE
I can’t think of any others. Wayne Martin would be my choice. Joe Johnson would be second.
Go Saints!!!! Deuce may be gone, but he will never be forgotten.
by David "Satch" Kelly on Jun 2, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Only DE's (and every other position) after Late 80's Need Apply
Thus a reduced field of candidates.
Yes, the foundation of this incredible relationship Saints fans have with their team is strongly rooted in the first 2 decades of the franchise history yet the players from that era “get no love”.
Once again, the question is proposed to any CSC member that voted for Joe Horn as the best saints receiver ever (hurts to even type that phrase!!) :
Is there any Saint player you would seriously consider the best Saint ever at their position that played before 1987? Remember, that is 20 years of players (1967- 1986)??
This question was asked earlier (in the comments of the WR poll) and not a single Joe Horn voter has yet produced strong consideration for any player from the early days. If very few of the Joe Horn voters can vote for any Saint’s player (pre-’87), we clearly have a flawed system unfolding here.
Further proof of what is quite obviously happening here is that Marques Colston got more votes than Danny Abramowicz??? That’s like “Kelly’s Hereos” (great movie) getting the Oscar over “Patton”. Both movies “got game” but only one merits the Oscar. Colston is most definitely on track to be a great Saints receiver but he ain’t there yet!!
Guess us oldies have to view this event like a bad call (game altering) by a ref — you just have to allow human nature to be part of the game and move on!!
Wow, really?
There seems to be some serious age bias here. I don’t know about others, but I’m young. 20’s young. Most of these players I have never seen in game. How can I honestly judge a person I’ve never seen? Go by stats? Sorry, no dice. That does nothing for me. If I can’t watch them, I can’t judge them. I was able to watch and remember, and enjoy Joe Horn playing. Isn’t that enough? Or is my opinion “a bad call?”
by Just Some Guy on Jun 2, 2009 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I think that's the sticking point.
“If I can’t watch them, I can’t judge them.”
That’s a fair way to look at it, but it does take away the use of anything but stats and firsthand viewing of a player to determine his worth.
Stats don’t tell the whole story, especially when they weren’t kept, such as sacks before the mid 80’s. They do alleviate the need to research the lore of players’ exploits and accomplishments prior to the internet age, but they are a poor substitute for the whole picture.
Who’s better, Sammy Baugh or Peyton Manning? If you go with lore, it’s Slingin’ Sammy, who won multiple championships, six passing titles and set records not only as a QB, but also as a defensive back and punter. He once called Manning a really good quarterback, if you like guys who only play one position. Stats? Manning by a mile, but he has only one championship. Ask a range of age groups and Peyton wins, because he’s fresh, and Sammy’s dead and gone.
No one’s opinion is being called a “bad call”. I think Dempsey’s point is there will be a definite trend towards the latter day Saints, because that’s where most of our fellow CSC’ers have their memories.
All-Time teams have been done before. This won’t prove anything, except there’s a difference of opinion over the 40+ year history of the Saints and recent memories carry more weight.
Can you imagine the back and forth if the Giants (85 years) and the Bears (90 years) had to do the same? Butkus or Urlacher? Huff or Taylor?
You can’t mandate that recent memory counts more than memory lane. It just is a human trait. Those of us who remember Gilliam’s return will have to cede the floor to those who remember Gleason’s block.
Do you know what it means...
by MissingNO on Jun 2, 2009 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
ha!
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by Dave Cariello on Jun 2, 2009 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions
boom - just like Dempsey's 63-yarder must have sounded in Tulane Stadium way back when
"Knock 'em the (- -) out!" - G Dub
Actually...
I remember both…and I’m fonder of Gleason’s block. We didn’t know it when it happened, but Gilliam’s return was a will o’ the wisp. Gleason’s block was, we hope, the first birth pang of a dynasty. We can hope, anyway.
This is OUR year!
Pls Re-read the Words of my Post
My statement referred to the “event” not your opinion. Human nature being what it is, you are exactly right that you can only vote on what you know!!
The challenge with this “event” of naming an “all-time Saints team”, when the collective group is primarily composed of a subset of people that have limited knowledge (only seen players from the early ’90’s and later), is a flawed exercise that is poorly labeled as “the All-Time Saints Team”.
Forgetting the age, experience, era issue for a moment, I will also encourage all voters to not vote SOLELY based on the fact a player is your favorite. Example: How else does Marques Colston beat out Danny Abramowicz? I am a huge fan of Colston, but to date he has not produced enuff to seriously be in the discussion of “All-time”. Barring injuries, I expect he will wind-up owning the Saints receiveing Record book, but not yet.
by Dempsey63 on Jun 2, 2009 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
BOOM! rec'd it!
I agree with your voting criteria. I’m also a 30-something fan with little knowledge of the Saints pre-1987. I admit that I don’t know diddly squat about Danny Abramowicz, but agree that the jury is still out on Colston. I also don’t think Joe Horn is the best WR over Eric Martin. But, we all have our own opinions and the poll will reflect that. It’s unfortunate that some of the earlier players probably won’t get their due consideration. The lack of team success then and all those losing seasons won’t help their cause either with the younger fans.
It’’ll be interesting to see who gets the most votes between Drew Brees and Archie Manning. I expect Brees will, but Archie deserves serious consideration too. Even more interesting will be the matchup between Tom Dempsey and Morton Anderson. That’s a tough one. Dempsey still holds an incredible record, but Mort was one of the greatest NFL kickers ever.
Go Saints!!!! Deuce may be gone, but he will never be forgotten.
by David "Satch" Kelly on Jun 2, 2009 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Where I came from...
we said “diddly-squat” most of the time and “diddly-poo” some of the time. That’s Alabama talk for “I don’t know nothing ’bout none of that thaaar.” :-)
Go Saints!!!! Deuce may be gone, but he will never be forgotten.
by David "Satch" Kelly on Jun 3, 2009 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, it seems to me that we were just terrible on both sides of the ball for so long 1967- late 70's,
and then the D got really good from mid-80’s to early 90’s.
A couple of names from my childhood memory – Jim Merlo, Elois Grooms (70’s) and Bruce Clark (80’s – I remember reading something in the T-P from YEARS ago about Bruce Clark and Ricky Jackson maybe having a bet every year about who would have the most sacks…)- I checked them on pro-footballreference.com, and you are so right – stats are very scarce. I hate that tackles are not an official stat…and that sacks weren’t recorded until 1982.
Merlo was LB, and Grooms and Clark were DE/DTs
"Knock 'em the (- -) out!" - G Dub
Wayne Martin was a beast!!
Definitely Wayne was tops but I find it interesting that there’s no mention of either of today’ s highly paid pro-bowlers.
Wayne Martin would be my choice ...
though I do feel as though Bruce Clark is a glaring omission on this list of nominees. I also think Charles Grant, Elois Grooms and Bob Pollard are all at least worthy of mention.
Bruce Clark can be included
Bob Pollard WAS included then I took him off. He’s back in.
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by Dave Cariello on Jun 2, 2009 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
and...
Welcome to CSC!!!!
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by Dave Cariello on Jun 2, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
thanks
Pollard and Grooms aren’t going to carry the same statistical merits the more recent players will, primarily because tackles/sacks weren’t kept track of back then. They were both exceptional players in Dick Nolan’s Flex defense. Hell, the Cardinals though enough of Pollard to trade a three-time Pro Bowl guard (Conrad Dobler) in the prime of his career. Not like the inclusion of Terry Stieve or Ike Harris — both marginal talent, at best — pushed that 2-for-2 deal through.
Bruce Clark was the 4th overall player selected in the 1980 Draft, but elected to sign a lucrative deal with the Toronto Argonauts of the CFL, rather than play for the dismal Packers. He signed with the Saints a couple of years later and was one of the team’s primary defensive contributors under both Bum Phillips and Jim Mora. He was also one of the few veteran players (along with Eric Martin) to have the balls to cross NFLPA lines and participate in the strike games of 1987. He started all 15 games that year, including two replacement wins, so it could be argued that Clark contributed to the Saints first-ever winning season as much, if not more, than anyone. Not sure if being a “scab” is necessarily something to be proud of, but in the big picture (career achievements), it should mean more than not contributing, imo. And I think Shane Falco would agree. Heh.
Do you mean Shane "Footsteps" Falco? aka Keanu Reeves from that film about a pro football strike w/scabs - The Replacements?
Just call me IMDB.com.
I’m just waiting to see if someone can legitimately tie in a reference to that Disney movie from the 70’s with the donkey that kicked field goals for a team called the Atoms. I LOVED that movie as a kid. My parents drove my sister and me into New Orleans (from Covington) so we could watch that movie at the Lakeside Cinemas.
"Knock 'em the (- -) out!" - G Dub
you mean
they drove you and your sister into METAIRIE. Not New Orleans.
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by Dave Cariello on Jun 2, 2009 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah, you're right
I’ve got that North Shore mental block that everything on the other side of the causeway is NOLA (we moved from Baronne Street a few blocks off St Charles to Hwy 190 in Covington in 1976).
Thanks for the correction.
"Knock 'em the (- -) out!" - G Dub
Former WWL reporter GUS Kattengell
might be able to help you with that placekicking donkey reference.
Not a word on Doug Atkins...
Was he already pro-bowler caliber when he played for the Saints?
Just get the D going!
System is what it is
I’m 34 so I would say I can only remember watching Saints games from let’s say as far back as when I was 10 years old, so really I can only offer my own personal memories and opinions on my favorite players from like 1985 on up. More so within the last 15 or so years because those seasons obviously are fresher in the mind and I have been to more games in person in the last ten years. So, I guess my point in this ramble is that I am more inclined to get more jazzed-up about someone that played in my lifetime and more so about someone I actually remember seeing in person or live on TV than someone who played prior to my fan years. I think maybe there are some here like myself that will agree with that conclusion and will probably find themselves voting the same way.
Maybe Dave can allow for some honorable mentions or alternates to be listed at each position in the final tally
"Knock 'em the (- -) out!" - G Dub
was thinking about it
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by Dave Cariello on Jun 2, 2009 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Screw that!
Let’s just get Dave and make him suffer for having started a post that proves that some of us are getting old…
Just get the D going!
age difference
it will be a huge factor. i didn’t watch any of the saints before the 2002 season or so. so, yes, i voted joe horn but i think i probably would have voted him in as a 1st or 2nd reciever. what i remember of him is making big plays and bailing brooks out. maybe, if he would have been there in the 2006 season with brees coming in, he’d have made the pro bowl? who’s to say really, but i remember him coming up with big plays, whether they were big first downs or tds.
maybe there should be 2 seperate polls? one that has the members who remember the other players too? i know i’m too young to know them. all of these DEs, never heard of them. if you would have asked me, i’d have said will smith and he hasn’t been all that productive except for a season or 2. anyways, i think there’s definetely an age bias here.
Superbowl bound!!!...I hope? Go Saints! :D
Ageism!
Yeah – let the old folks have their own poll! Just make sure it is up early, I’ve got to get the Denny’s by 4 for the early bird special…
lol
Superbowl bound!!!...I hope? Go Saints! :D
by skinnykinney on Jun 2, 2009 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I think he was both
Like Jim Wilks
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by Dave Cariello on Jun 3, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions
oh and...
Welcome to CSC!!!
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by Dave Cariello on Jun 3, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions
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