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Panther Saint Rivalry

Many analyst think the Saints have done enough to boost their defense, to get them back atop the NFC South.  With the Panthers coming off the 3rd best record in the NFL, I thought it would be fun to do a Saint/Panther position comparison.  Being that I know much more about the Panthers than the Saints, I am hoping you guys will fill in the gaps with Saint player/position details.

Star-divide

Quarterback: Drew Breeze vs Jake Delhomme
This is probably no comparison.  Even many Panther fans would rather have Breeze than Jake.  There is an argument to be made however for how well Jake fits in Fox's plan... and one stat Jake leads Drew in is 4th quarter comebacks.  Also Drew learned last year that QB stats don't necessarily mean wins.  However it is too hard to say that Drew is not the better QB.  Nod Saints.

Running Back: Bush/Thomas vs Williams/Stewart 
This also is probably no comparison. It is tough to compete with Deangelo's 1515 yards,5.5 average, 20TDs (most in the NFL), and more importantly 0 Fumbles.  Panthers might very well have the best tandem in the NFL.  Not to mention few believe that the Saints most skilled RB, Reggie Bush, can be an every down back.  Panthers definitely have the better rushing attack.

Wide Receiver: Colston/Meachem vs Smith/Muhammad
Obviously Steve Smith is the best receiver on the field when these 2 teams meet.  And Muhammad is possibly the best blocking receiver in the league... bringing a dimension that most teams do not have.  Both are veteran players compared to the Saint's younger receivers.  Colston obviously has potential, and having Breeze as your QB gives you a definite edge as well.  But I have a hard time not giving this one to the Panthers.

Tight End: Shockey/King
This one is tough because Shockey is a great player, but potential to be a big headache. While King has good hands, but is primarily used as a blocking TE.  I hesitate to give this to the Saints because of Shockey's drama and durability concerns.  But he is too good to not give the Saint's the nod.

Offensive Line
Gross is an an all pro Left Tackle. And the Panther's right side (Vincent + Otah) dominated in the running game last year.  I don't know enough about the Saints O-Line to say too much.  But I think this one goes to the Panthers.

Defense
This should go to the Panthers.  Peppers is the most gifted DE in the NFL and Jon Beason is one of the best (possibly the best) LB in the league.  However as a team they underperformed last year.  With the drafting of Everette Brown (the best pass rusher in the draft) and hiring of the Colts OC Ron Meeks, the Panther's D should be much faster and improved.  Last year the Saints D ruined an incredible offense.  However rumors are that that will not be the case in '09.  So this one is close due to uncertainties.  But I will give it to the Panthers based on multiple player's proven success.

This FanPost was written by a reader and member of Canal Street Chronicles. It does not necessarily reflect the views of CSC and its staff or editors.

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the o-line is hard...

we are a passing team, so we seem to look for better pass-blockers than run-blockers while the panthers are more of a run-blocking o-line. i’d have to give this one a draw considering that brees got the nod at qb with a pass-blocking line but williams/stewart got the nod w/ the run-blocking line. i’d call that one a draw.

i will you give you the nod at D for the first 2 games and then we will have to go from there. we have gotten the talent to be good with a few proven names. vilma, sharper, porter was good before he got hurt. we got the top db in the draft in jenkins. now that i think more about it, maybe this should be a draw too since the panthers are more likely to stop the run before the pass but the saints are now more likely to stop the pass before the run. plus we have a new DC in greg williams. i’ll give you guys a slight edge here considering our defense has been pretty bad the past couple of years.

Superbowl bound!!!...I hope? Go Saints! :D

by skinnykinney on Jun 28, 2009 10:38 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

ME...

if you read this, we should do something like this with all of the teams that we play this season starting with the lions and moving on from there. it at least gives you something to write everyday till dave gets back probably tell the other team’s blog about it too maybe.

Superbowl bound!!!...I hope? Go Saints! :D

by skinnykinney on Jun 28, 2009 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Goog idea

I was hitting up just you guys and the Falcons. But many teams on the 2009 schedule would be fun.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jun 29, 2009 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

on every comparison you touched upon, though I’m not sure why you lumped the entire defense together. Was your mom ringing the dinner bell? “Oh crap, gotta cut this short now. Thxbye.”

by coldpizza on Jun 28, 2009 11:03 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Exactly!

But it was my wife. Same thing I guess… they both nag me. Plus I felt a little guilty for writing that much and not being an actual blogger. But what else is a Football fan to do mid June???

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jun 29, 2009 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

WR Meachem @ 2?

cold pizza : completely agreed don’t waste our time with a lame ass post like this
skinneykinney : I like the idea, but lets wait till at least preseason so we know final rosters and/or starting players w/ accurate depth charts (ie. secondary in pass coverage w/ xtra DB’s out there, DL rotation, WR order etc.)

by Norml912 on Jun 29, 2009 2:17 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

can someone explain.....

With the drafting of Everette Brown (the best pass rusher in the draft) and hiring of the Colts OC Ron Meeks, the Panther’s D should be much faster and improved.

what does this have to do with D? or am I just used to properly structured writing?

by Norml912 on Jun 29, 2009 2:24 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Have you ever seen the Colts play???

Sorry I thought speed and pass rushing had something to do with defense.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jun 29, 2009 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm

This just proves that Panthers have homers, too.

Jake fits in Fox’s plan? What is that plan, ineptitude or cluelessness? Does anyone really think that Brees wouldn’t be a better quarterback in any system? With any receiver corps?

Which brings us to the receiver corps. Steve Smith is indeed usually the best receiver on the field no matter who else is playing; but Muhammad? Hines Ward is beyond question the best blocking wide receiver in the league; Muhammad is a good blocker for a wide receiver. There’s a difference. But what does wide receiver blocking have to do with the effectiveness of a passing game?

And why is Meachem listed as the number two receiver? Just to make things easier on the Panthers?

The Panthers definitely have the better running attack…but it’s almost entirely due to their game plan and the makeup of their offensive line. They’re a running team. If you substituted Pierre Thomas for Williams, I bet he’d have similar numbers. After all, in a pass-happy offense he still managed to put up a 4.8. The flip side is that the Panthers aren’t built to pass block as well…which is why they gave up 20 sacks, while the Saints gave up 13. (And Jake lost three fumbles. Which isn’t bad…I think I’ve seen him lose that many in a single game.)

Regarding the tight end position: you hesitate? Jeff King had a monster year—for him—in 2007, and his stats are still inferior to Shockey’s after the worst season of his career.

Offensive line? As I said, yours is built for the running game; ours is built for the passing game. As I recall, we had the number one offense in the league last year, in yards and in points. Carolina was 10th and 7th. Whose line really does a better job?

Now, as to the defense: you could make the argument that Peppers is “the most gifted” defensive end (as opposed to the best), but you still couldn’t convince me. Old Julius plays well, when he wants to. And whether or not your personnel is suited to Meeks’ scheme is very much in question—just as whether or not our personnel are suited to Williams’ scheme. But I can’t see Meeks making your defense better; and I can see Williams improving ours. My own guess—and this is a homer’s guess all the way—is that the Panthers drop by five spots and the Saint rise by ten…putting us about dead even. With our offensive superiority, I can’t see Carolina taking the division again.

This is OUR year!

by MtnExile on Jun 29, 2009 6:03 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Fox = Wins

Fox’s plan with Jake equates to 2 NFC Championships and a Superbowl… Which Brees has come short of. But as I said Brees is the better QB, the stats don’t lie.

Shockey… I can’t argue this. King is inferior. And your comments about Julius are definite concerns for Panther fans. But why can’t you see Meeks making the Panther’s D better? He took a small Colt’s defense and got them to dominate by using speed to overcome their size. This is exactly the same type personnel the Panthers have… but many analyst say with even more talent then what he had in Indianapolis.

The Panthers sweeped the Saints last year. But the 2nd game was very close. Unfortunately for you, your D and a Houdini act by Steve Smith allowed the Panthers to overcome your high powered offense. However I will say… If you are right about your D improving and the Panther D not improving… then you WILL either split or sweep the Panthers. Guess we’ll have to wait and see.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jun 29, 2009 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fox

Fox is a Schottenheimer clone—he’s the kind of coach who can take a bad team and turn them into a good team, or a great team and turn them into a good team. His inept game management is the reason you lost the Super Bowl.

As for Meeks: everyone forgets that for a long time, the Colts were built on the same pattern as the Saints: high-powered offense, pitiful defense. The defense was built up slowly, piece by carefully-chosen piece, until the personnel exactly fit Dungy’s conception. Only then did it work correctly.

Meeks will be coming in with a brand-new defensive scheme and trying to get an alien group of players to adapt to it. Maybe he’ll have success; but since Carolina historically has trouble putting together back-to-back good years (seems to be a special problem in the NFC South) I’m betting that the defense has a slump.

This is OUR year!

by MtnExile on Jun 30, 2009 6:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So you guys are familiar with back-to-back good years too!

It’s the curse of the NFC South. However ours had to do with injuries. After 04’ we lost Steve Smith and our top 2 RBs. In 07’ we went through 3 QBs. With Fox, history proves that you will NOT see a slump in 09’ unless there are injuries.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jun 30, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you substituted Pierre Thomas for Williams, I bet he’d have similar numbers. After all, in a pass-happy offense he still managed to put up a 4.8.

I’d be more inclined to think the pass-happy offense is WHY he managed to put up 4.8. A lot of his yardage has come on quick-hitting counters and draws, when the defense was thinking pass. I personally see Thomas as a slightly shorter version of Ryan Grant. Not franchise caliber workhorse by any means, just a slightly above average contributor. I don’t outright doubt he could have the same level of success in a run-heavy offense, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he struggled. That being said, DeAngelo Williams struggled up until last season and was a much more heavily touted back coming out of college than either Thomas or Grant, so you never know.

The flipside — which you failed to touch upon — would be Williams filling Thomas’s role in a pass-heavy offense. I honestly don’t see much of a problem there at all. While I agree that both fit their respective teams’ needs well, I think Williams would have an easier time of it, if the two were juxtaposed. Both due to the less demanding workload he’d be faced with, as well as his superior athleticism.

Put it this way. If they were both making the same amount of money and a Williams-for-Thomas trade was proposed, I’d be all over it. Primarily in hopes that it would lead to a more balanced offensive attack. With moola and Payton’s video game mentality both factored in, I’ll stick with our discount dynamo.

by coldpizza on Jun 30, 2009 2:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A "pass-happy" offense makes it easier on RBs

Everyone knew the Panthers were running the ball. They’d put 8 in the box, and Deangelo still averaged .7 more than Thomas. Plus 0 fumbles is the toughest stat as a RB. Nobody would trade the leagues TD leading RB for Pierre Thomas.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jun 30, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You miss the point

The Panthers, as a team, are built to run. The Saints are built to pass. Running backs have better stats on running teams, not simply because they’re better running backs but because the entire engine of the offense is designed to support them in every way possible. And I didn’t suggest a trade…I simply proposed a thought experiment (and thinking about it is all we’ll ever be able to do).

This is OUR year!

by MtnExile on Jun 30, 2009 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What eva

Somebody tell SouthTunnel aka Bishop Magic Don Juan, Saints take the Panthers twice this year on the way to take the division!! Football is a TEAM sport all this individual comparisons is a waste of time and gets my blood’ah boiling!
Nothing could be finer then to be in Carolina – NOT – - I’ll take the BIG EASY any day.
WHO DAT DAMNIT!!!

by BigTMill on Jun 29, 2009 6:45 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice

I hear ya… But you better put 3 DBs on Steve Smith this time.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jun 29, 2009 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

For all those who think Smith is the GOAT

Smith has had a few good games but he hasn’t been super impressive. In 14 career games against the Saints, Smith has had at least a 100 yards and a touchdown (what I consider a very good game) twice. In addition to that he has had a game where he totaled 134 yards and 0 TD and another game where he had 85 yards and 2 TD. I’ll count those as good days as well, totalling 4 good games out of 14. I have listed his stats below:

2008

122 yd, 1 TD
134 yd, 0 TD
2007

47 yd, 0 TD
47 yd, 0 TD
2006

87 yd, 1 TD
87 yd, 2 TD
2005

138 yd, 1 TD
85 yd, 1 TD
2004
*Smith was hurt

2003

13 yd, 0 TD
100 yd, 0 TD
2002

68 yd, 0 TD
37 yd, 0 TD
2001

11yd, 0 TD
68 yd, 0 TD
He has had some good games against the Saints but over the first half of Smith’s career it was Muhamid (not Smith) having the big games for Carolina against the Saints (Muhamid is not knocking on Canton’s door). A "killer" should have over half of his games be good games. Last year, Bernard Berrian had 110 yd and 1 TD coming from Gus Ferot. Arnaz Battle had 120 yd without a TD coming from O’ Sullivan. Big games were easy to come by for a WR playing the Saints. I believe your recent memory is more prominent in your mind.

by ReggieVilma on Jun 29, 2009 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Smith came in to the league as a return specialist...

… of which he made the ProBowl as a rookie! As a starter he has averaged over 85ypg against the Saints.

But here is what you lose sight of… Remember how you lost the 2nd game against the Panthers in 08’? Remember Smith’s catch in double coverage to set up the game winning field goal? Wins are more important than stats.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jun 30, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Remember?

Do we remember? DO WE REMEMBER!?

Yeah, we remember. Steve Smith is a nightmare, nuff said. Then again…so was Gary Gibbs.

This is OUR year!

by MtnExile on Jun 30, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Too be fair...

Reggie Bush scared tha bejesus out of us that 1st game. Nobody could get their hands on him.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jun 30, 2009 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok

so how many return TDs did he have as a rookie? and he has only averaged 74 ypg receiving over his career against the Saints. Colston had 132 yards and a TD the one game he played against Carolina as a rookie (he was being rested the second go around because we had already wrapped up the division). His rookie year, Colston also averaged 74 ypg. He outperformed the savy vet, Horn, that was the number one receiver at the time and took his spot. Smith couldn’t outperform Muhamad.

And I havn’t lost sight of that play. He caught the ball in between our safeties. That speaks of how bad our defense was rather than how good smith is. Powerhouse receivers such as Arnaz Battle and Bernard Berrian had 100 d games against us last year. Our secondary sucked. Jake Delhomme could have just as easily caught that pass from steve smith. If you look at the numbers, he had one outstanding year last year and the others are average by number one receiver standards.

by ReggieVilma on Jul 1, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hummm

As long a Delhomme is throwing to him we won’t need to do all that. How many int’s did he throw in that last playoff game like what 30??

And what you really know about the durty souf?? You do ya shrimp and grits, I’ll take a pot’ah gumbo, some boild crawfish, boudin and blacked catfish with a pontchartrain sauce over some durty rice.

by BigTMill on Jul 1, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Delhommme, to me, is a journeyman QB

who has been fortunate to stay in one place. He has found a coach that can work with a QB with mediocre skills that doesn’t try to overachieve and allow the running game, kicking game and defense to win the game. Delhomme would not be a starter on more than 1/2 the rosters in the NFL, maybe more (NO,NY,PHIL, IND,NE, DET,DAL,ARIZ,MI,NYJ, GB, WA, ATL, etc. I think his lack of arm strength really catches up to him this year like it did in the playoffs.

by Philinwood on Jun 30, 2009 2:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I was never a fan of Delhomme

He’s been a terribly inconsistent QB throughout his career, especially in big games. To my recollection, the only QB more geared to extremes over their entire career in the last decade or so was Jake Plummer. Maybe it has something to do with the name Jake.

Outside of Brooks being injured (which wasn’t revealed until months later), I could never understand the criticism of Jim Haslett for not switching to Delhomme down the stretch of the 2002 season. Even in hindsight, can you imagine the flack he would have taken for such a move, had Delhomme turned in the same dismal results? “OMFG, how do you BENCH your starting QB for an undrafted POS like that?” That’s all you would have heard on talk radio shows for months. In fact, Haslett probably would have been fired over it. And rightfully so, for being so spineless.

Tough pill to swallow at the time, but I’d much rather a coach who sticks by his guns than caves in to the demands of fans. That goes triple when it’s a completely unproven, in-state product they’re clamoring for during crunch time.

by coldpizza on Jun 30, 2009 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What Rivalry?

The only real rivalry is v.s. the Falcons, the only team thats been a division opp.with us forever- . i remember the Red Trailways buses pulling up to the Dome and thousands off Falcon fans getting off, who remembers the "I Hate the Falcons T-shirts (w/upside down dead Falcon) from early 80’s, still have that thing in my parents attic—- LOL

You think you know, and you don't know, and you never, ever will know..Jim Mora Sr.

by metryman on Jul 1, 2009 2:06 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Haha

I had one of those, also. Little “x” for a birdy eye and the tongue hanging out.

by coldpizza on Jul 1, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Roger that

it was quite comical in a early 80’s style, also had “Archie is A Saint” t-shirt mid to late 70’s, trying to remember if that Falcon t-shirt was a stadium give-away?

You think you know, and you don't know, and you never, ever will know..Jim Mora Sr.

by metryman on Jul 1, 2009 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No idea

I’m pretty sure it was a dust rag at some point.

by coldpizza on Jul 1, 2009 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Some radio station

 — was it WTIX? — started an “I hate the Falcons” bumper sticker campaign in the early 80s, I believe it was. Maybe late 70s. But they added a heart to the sticker to show we didn’t really mean. No, we meant it.

This is OUR year!

by MtnExile on Jul 4, 2009 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was the home opener

in 1979. We had lost two close games to them the year prior and they were trying to get the city riled up for the game. Of course, we would up losing that one, also. Can’t really remember where the t-shirts and stickers were from. WTIX or WRNO would be my guess.

by coldpizza on Jul 4, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, M-E, it did have a heart on it - I remember those bumperstickers

We always said that because it had a heart on it, it meant “I hate the Falcons with all my heart!”

"Knock 'em the (- -) out!" - G Dub

by HansDat on Jul 4, 2009 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really? Falcon fans seem to think the Panthers are the greater rival

But maybe that’s based on proximity.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Jul 26, 2009 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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