CSC All-Time Saints Team Election: Cornerback No. 1
by Saintsational on Jul 8, 2009 6:00 AM CDT
in CSC All-Time Saints Team
56 comments
It's time now to vote for another member to be elected to our CSC All-Time Saints team. If you missed our first cornerback nomination post yesterday you can catch it right here.
Not surprisingly, I missed a few notable players so I've added Dave Waymer, Eric Allen and Toi Cook. The polls will be open for exactly 48 hours which means they will close at 6am on Friday, July 10th. You only get one vote so make it count. You can make a difference. If you've never voted in a CSC poll to date, now is the perfect time to start. Be sure to tell everyone you know to come on over and vote as well. Don't forget that you will have a chance to vote for the second cornerback position at a later date.
As always, the comment section is open for more discussion about these great players and the way things used to be.
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These votes
are an amazing look at the age demographic of voters on the CSC. McKenzie tied with Waymer for 1st! How!? In my mind, Mckenzie is tied with Cook on talent, with Cook breaking the tie on years played for the Saints. But both of them would be vying for 3rd against Allen and Waymer, no question.Cook may take 2nd over Allen since Allen’s worst career years were here in NO, but no way Mckenzie breaks in! Best this decade, Mckenzie, hands down. But best all-time? Seriously?
by FuSoYa on Jul 8, 2009 11:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I have McKenzie
considerably above Cook, based on his run support prowess first and foremost, but also for his superior man-to-man cover skills. I always viewed Cook as more of a liability than an asset. He and Poe are fairly comparable, imo. But I agree with you, Allen (talent) and Waymer (tenure) should be the two running away with this. Maybe people think McKenzie had something to do with the bakery chain and are voting for him based on his delicious chocolate turtle confections. That’s the best explanation I can come up with.
by coldpizza on Jul 8, 2009 11:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Those were some good petit fours
and Halloween cookies.
by FuSoYa on Jul 8, 2009 12:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The buttermilk drops
and eclairs were tasty, too. I think that’s why our murder rate was always so high. NOPD officers were too stuffed with pastries to respond to emergency dispatches. “Be there in a sec, Sarge. I’m licking the beignet sugar off my trigger finger.”
by coldpizza on Jul 8, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why isn't Dick Bruce nominated?
Whoever votes for him gets a free blackout cake.
This is OUR year!
by MtnExile on Jul 8, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not that this
adds any value to this post. In fact, I’m sure I’ll be deleting some…But Dick Bruce is the gayest name I’ve ever heard in my life. A guy with a name like that should have played Robin on the Batman TV series. Sorry…
by FuSoYa on Jul 8, 2009 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Murder Rate
As I was informed by NOPD our murder rate has always been so disproportionately high b/c is directly related to “gang” warfare if you look at murder break down per area the trend goes that it is only in a few areas and it is on going… back and forth. Sad but true.
by Norml912 on Jul 8, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd imagine
a “Dick for Cake” campaign would go over big in the Faubourg Marigny.
by coldpizza on Jul 8, 2009 1:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
LOL
I can smell a new festival in the works outside Cafe Brazil already. At least, I hope that’s what that smell is. Alright, I’m off to go get some tee shirts made…
by FuSoYa on Jul 8, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you guys not remember Dick Bruce?
McKenzie’s pitchman, who would always take a bite out of whatever they were featuring at the end of the commercial? I think he ran for parish president or something once in Jefferson and got his ass handed to him.
This is OUR year!
by MtnExile on Jul 8, 2009 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can say
I don’t remember that guy. Maybe before my time? Although I’ll say if he had been sporting the “Dick for Cake” slogan on his Parish Prez bid, I bet I would remember him.
by FuSoYa on Jul 8, 2009 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Cake or dick!"
“Cake, please…”
This is OUR year!
by MtnExile on Jul 8, 2009 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember the guy
you’re talking about, just didn’t know his name.
by coldpizza on Jul 8, 2009 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I used to have
an 8×10 b&w glossy of Ernie Jackson trying to break up a pass intended for Harold Carmichael. Carmichael was leaping with both hands on the ball, Jackson sort of falling back into him frantically flailing his arms. Looked more like a little kid trying to escape Frankenstein’s monster lol. I wish I knew where it was. The size differential between the two is what makes it stick out in my mind.
by coldpizza on Jul 8, 2009 1:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Weakest position
all time saints team, is what this vote should have been called. As a historical point, Cb’s have killed this team. Close for me was MM and Toi, but Toi eventually became ‘Toast’ and MM was the most talented ,felt pretty confident with MM lining up on Sundays but, injuries,age and salary cap caught up with him. Cool to see E. Jackson mentioned he and Waymer played hard. Forgot Waymer ended up in SF and Oakland to finish his career w/48 picks……….
You think you know, and you don't know, and you never, ever will know..Jim Mora Sr.
by metryman on Jul 8, 2009 4:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
absolutely agree
I suggested not picking a CB at all in the previous thread. Almost all of these guys are tied up with really bad (and repreated) torchings in my mind. I’m probably one of the members of the older demographic here and have complained previously about you young whipper-snappers and your voting for more recent players (i.e. Horn over Martin) but I voted for McKenzie (and not just because of their buttermilk drops. When I vote for these polls I’m taking 3 things into account:
- tenure – the player had to have spent a significant portion of his career, including some of his best years with the Saints – thus Eric Allen is out in my mind.
- talent – the player had to actually be good – this discounts Toi Cook in my mind. OK, perhaps that’s a little harsh, but Cook was average at best and clearly benefitted from an incredible pass rush.
- production – Simply being here for a long time and having talent isn’t enough. The player had to produce, play his position well and not be posterized on a regular basis.
I eliminated Waymer in my mind since most of my memories of him are of getting beat badly. I voted for McKenzie because he played good years here, was a very good CB, and more than kept up his end of the bargain in coverage.
by SaintBevo on Jul 9, 2009 6:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Will you be voting for Brees?
He’s been here the same amount of time Eric Allen was.
by coldpizza on Jul 9, 2009 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sad to say
probably not. We’ll see, but at the moment, I’d have to give the edge to Manning. Give Brees a couple more years like he has had and he’d be a shoe-in.
by SaintBevo on Jul 9, 2009 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
I’d take Brooks or Hebert over Manning, even without Brees in the picture. I guess tenure really does mean a lot to you.
by coldpizza on Jul 10, 2009 1:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have comments on that
but let’s save that for later
by SaintBevo on Jul 10, 2009 7:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Given the circumstances
I feel sorta bad calling this one a dead heat. :/
by coldpizza on Jul 9, 2009 1:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
McKenzie
only started four more games than Allen and missed playing time in all but one of his four seasons here. Allen never missed a game as a Saint and was easily the more talented of the two in terms of a career. McKenzie never made the Pro Bowl. Not that I put a whole lot of weight into post-season accolades, but c’mon. Granted, their overall success with the Saints is roughly a draw. Both had their share of spectacular plays, both got beat like a drum on occasion, just like everyone else. Still, aside from run support, I never saw anything that made me think Mike McKenzie was an outright better overall CB than Eric Allen, strictly as a Saint or otherwise. Close in one light, worlds apart in the big picture. I voted for Allen over Waymer and Waymer has far more tenure than either. I can’t imagine why anyone who voted for Fontenot over Hilgenberg/Hill at center — as interchangeable a position as positions come — would suddenly decide tenure is going to bear an ounce of weight.
by coldpizza on Jul 9, 2009 8:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
you obviously have a higher opinion of Allen's tenure here than I do
I can’t remember him doing anything special in his 3 years here. Mckenzie, who did miss time due to injury, was here for 5 seasons (vs 3 for allen) and had more picks (12 vs 5) and more picks per game. If I was picking an all-time NFL team, I’d pick Allen over McKenzie, but we’re not doing that…
by SaintBevo on Jul 9, 2009 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't referring
to you on the Hilgy thing, just voters in general. I understand giving the nod to McKenzie based on Saints tenure alone. I mean, it’s at least arguable. I just think no one really seperates themselves from the pack under that criteria. In my opinion, this is like choosing between Earl Campbell and six Vaughn Dunbars. Ok, maybe McKenzie is a Gil Fenerty. If any non-Saints fan saw our team, I can see how those two names could conjure up images of greatness. Yep, I think I’m going with Fenerty, being that he attended Jesuit High School and had more all-purpose yards as a Saint than the other two combined. After all, statistics win championships.
by coldpizza on Jul 10, 2009 1:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No kidding
at first didn’t know what u meant ,til i scrolled up, Eric Allen??? ,in those days the Saints had a knack for going after the guys that hurt us on other teams, (i.e. EA, and Jim Everett) problem was they were passed their prime. Pro bowlers in the past, but he should be at the bottom of the list, couldn’t tackle either, just like Neon Deion, at least MM was a sure tackler and wasn’t afraid to stick his nose into an on coming train….
You think you know, and you don't know, and you never, ever will know..Jim Mora Sr.
by metryman on Jul 9, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mostly agree
Allen didn’t play real well for us, but what really chaps my hide with him is he went on to have better years AFTER he left the Saints, when he was presumably waaay past his prime! He is a great one, though, and, as much as I liked McKenzie, apart from his fearless hitting, his years here were about on par with Allen’s “low point” years in NO. It looks like Waymer’s still in the mix for CB2 though, so hopefully we’ll finish with Allen/Waymer. I could live with that.
by FuSoYa on Jul 9, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That "knack"
Richard Todd is another good example of that. Ditto Wade Wilson.
This is OUR year!
by MtnExile on Jul 9, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wade Wilson looked good for the first five games of the 1993 season as we went 5-0
And then the wheels fell off Wade and that season in a hurry (in case you don’t remember, we won only 3 of the final 11 in that season).
"Knock 'em the (- -) out!" - G Dub
by HansDat on Jul 9, 2009 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes good i.e.
Its quite a list…….
You think you know, and you don't know, and you never, ever will know..Jim Mora Sr.
by metryman on Jul 14, 2009 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't see
how Eric Allen was past his prime when he came here. He was 30 years old, while McKenzie was 29. Wow, what a difference. Six INTs as a 35 year old in Oakland, three returned for TDs. If McKenzie is still in the league at 35, I’ll be very surprised. Allen also wasn’t a poor tackler. Jim Everett had two of the best seasons statistically of any Saints QB up until that point. If either of those two are what you consider to be poor personnel decisions, I wish our current coaching staff would start screwing up just as badly. Now, Todd and Wilson I will agree with. Neither were anything special, even before they got here. Glad to see the voters are finally starting to go with the best overall player and not just the ones who played most recently.
by coldpizza on Jul 9, 2009 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, about those voters
When I went to bed last night, McKenzie and Waymer were neck and neck and way out front. This morning, suddenly Eric Allen has come out of nowhere like Santa’s Little Helper with a rocket up his butt. No, I’m not suspicious…
This is OUR year!
by MtnExile on Jul 9, 2009 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
remember when Bart got a credit card?
under the name Santos L. Helper
"Knock 'em the (- -) out!" - G Dub
by HansDat on Jul 9, 2009 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
conspiracy theory?
Wanna say something? Sign up! It's free!
by Saintsational on Jul 9, 2009 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You tell me
Did all those votes originate from the same IP? Did they all hit as a bloc at around the same time? Anything substantial at all, or just my own paranoid suspicions? It sure looks as though somebody wanted Allen to win by hook or by crook, and hook wasn’t working.
This is OUR year!
by MtnExile on Jul 9, 2009 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I noticed that. I wonder if they’re related to the shady characters that gave McKenzie and Waymer the early lead. Or to the 900+ voters who participated in prior polls. Whatever became of all those people? The world wide web is full of haunting mysteries.
by coldpizza on Jul 9, 2009 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This vote must be thrown out!!
pending a thorough investigation, Randall Gay will be the CB1 Pro Tempore. May God lead us through this shameful debacle.
by FuSoYa on Jul 9, 2009 10:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
LOL
A likely future Hall of Famer that played in the non-glory Mora years as our starting CB? NEEEEEAUX, ANYTHING BUT THAT!!!1 Not saying that the Eagle front sevens from the early ‘90s were a slouch by any stretch of the imagination but seriously, can you imagine what Allen’s career numbers would look like had he played in Toi Cook’s place, 1987-93? Check that, can you imagine what DAVE WAYMER’S career numbers would look like playing opposite Allen? This one is pretty much a no-brainer, imo. And in a lot of other ppl’s as well, apparently.
by coldpizza on Jul 10, 2009 1:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Point taken
but Waymer better get CB2, because sentimentality goes a long way in these votes, dammit.
by FuSoYa on Jul 10, 2009 1:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If not
he’d still be eligible as a safety. How are we handling safeties anyway? True free and strong designations … or just safeties in general twice? There’s not much of a field combined. I can only think of about five total that are even worthy of all-time discussion. Imagine how thin it would be, if we went break it down specific.
Waymer (if he doesn’t make it as a CB), Tommy Myers, Sammy Knight = serious contenders
Russell Gary, Gene Atkins, Brett Maxie = second tier, still worthy of consideration, imo
Jay Bellamy, Antonio Gibson, Frank Wattelet, Chris Oldham, Dwight Smith = serviceable honorable mentions
Rob Kelly, Bo Burris, George Youngblood, Don Schwartz, Chuck Crist, Tebucky Jones = scraping the bottom of the barrel
Bennie Thompson, Steve Gleason = better suited as ST ace nominees, if we decide to go that route
Pretty sure Toi Cook wound up playing free safety for the 49ers after he left New Orleans. Clearly the best they’ve ever had at the position.
by coldpizza on Jul 10, 2009 4:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jay Bellamy?!
I thought I’d never have to see that name again! I would field Gleason as a defensive starter before that guy. He was like watching a fork load of pasta chase receivers around the field. I’ll scrape the barrel with Tebucky before I ever consider Bellamy a Saint again. Now that I think of it, our all-time secondary would be maybe a second string in Philly’s or Tampa’s.
by FuSoYa on Jul 10, 2009 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"our all-time secondary would be maybe a second string in Philly’s or Tampa’s."
I think the same could be said of most members of our All-Time team. We’re not the fourth worst franchise in NFL history based entirely on a Marie Laveau incantation.
by coldpizza on Jul 10, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh my God you're right...
What have I been doing with my life?!
by FuSoYa on Jul 10, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's be fair here
An all-time Saints team would be strong enough to win several Super Bowls. The problem is: they didn’t all play at the same time.
Of course, you could say the same about an all-time team for just about any franchise in the league.
This is OUR year!
by MtnExile on Jul 10, 2009 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
And that’s what we (or at least I) meant by that. If every team fielded their respective All-Time team for an entire season we might wind up slipping into the playoffs, being that our entire division isn’t all that strong historically … but I think we’d be embarrassed pretty badly once we got there.
by coldpizza on Jul 11, 2009 4:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although
a lot would depend on the criteria you used. For example, do the Falcons get to claim Brett Favre, Eric Dickerson, Cris Doleman and Deion Sanders? Do the Bucs get Steve Young, Tim Brown, Joey Browner, Lomas Brown and Reggie Roby? Do the Panthers get Reggie White, Kevin Greene, Nate Newton and Eugene Robinson? If yes, then we’d probably have to rethink our team to include Earl Campbell and/or Jim Taylor, Doug Atkins, Conrad Dobler, etc. Amd would we have to share Morten Andersen and Sam Mills? Whole lot of grey area there.
by coldpizza on Jul 11, 2009 5:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
MM just seems like more of a Saint than EA
I like EA okay but I think his personal affiliation is not with the Saints. MM was there for the run. MM wanted to be a Saint. I miss having him on the team. He was solid even after being injured.
by xen-cuts on Jul 11, 2009 8:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Eh
I don’t put a whole lot of emphasis on that. McKenzie was here during the dismal Katrina season, followed by the 2006 playoff run. I think any time a player is involved in something that significant, they’re bound to be more connected with the team on a personal level. I don’t personally discredit McKenzie for the peaks and valleys he experienced here any more than I blame Allen for the general ineptitude of a dynasty-level defense being gutted from the inside out. Allen just never had the good fortune to be a better than average Saints team. He does tend to gravitate towards the Eagles, but quite honestly, who can blame him? Those were his best years, both as a player and in terms of overall team success. I don’t think too many people would have refrained from voting for Sam Mills, based on his love for the Panthers organization. That’s much less forgivable, imo. Though, I completely understand his position, both at the time he decided to leave (greener pastures) and in the big picture (coaching opportunity, higher level of appreciation, etc).
by coldpizza on Jul 11, 2009 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think
of McKenzie as a Packer at heart. But I guess he split his time evenly, and he’s been the only bright spot in the outfield since Knight left.
by FuSoYa on Jul 11, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think
of McKenzie as Rob Pilatus. And Al Harris as Fab Morvan. Only Mike didn’t die. He just moved south and morphed into the Predator.
by coldpizza on Jul 12, 2009 12:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milli and Vanilli were an opportunistic defensive tandem
by FuSoYa on Jul 12, 2009 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They weren’t exactly NKOTB, but I’ll give them their props.
by coldpizza on Jul 12, 2009 6:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
34
might be the Saints’ official team number for predators.
by FuSoYa on Jul 12, 2009 12:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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