Not sure if you’re right or not. But we have got to try SOMETHING different. Maybe that’s what we need to try. Maybe not. At least its somebody different than what we are doing.

I will add, though, that PT was 4 carries for 15 yards, almost 4 yards per carry and I think if he got more carries, like in a regular game, he would have even a higher ypc. Not really too bad. But, overall, I think what you say makes sense.

I don’t know where you’ve been but welcome. I hope to see a lot more of you. And I also hope you get all the reaction and comments you were looking for. Something tells me you will.

PT i think can still have success in the current scheme. He can get to the hole and burst through and fall forward. Watching Reggie try to do this though is painful. I agree, traps and counters would do alot to get Reggie into space. It looks like Payton is still trying to make Reggie fit into his current scheme. To get yards in the man on man blocking scheme we use now, the back has to be able to run low and hard and fight for 4 yards. That isn’t what reggie is good at, and we all know it by now. I just dont see why Payton is still trying to make him do that.

sounds like good reasoning to me! Nice post!

Folded jelly. I like it.

I’m not competent to write on blocking schemes, so I can’t say I agree…I rarely understand exactly what I’m seeing in offensive line play UNLESS it’s something like a trap, in which case it’s obvious what the strategy of the play is. And thinking about it, it seems to me that in fact I do rarely see plays like that from the Saints.

And yes, ultimately it’s Payton’s fault. But I think some of the blame (if blame there ought to be) also has to go to the line coach and even to the offensive coordinator/valet.

I think you “hit the nail on the head”. I always wondered why Deuce took so long to hit the line on some of his runs, and it looked like he was just dancing around back there. You explained it perfectly. The guys we have now are faster and can’t wait for things to develop. It seems they get there too soon and don’t get the benefit of the blocking they need. Quicker holes would get them to the second level faster and more yards.

Seems like Hamilton did a better job of it, if he could only hold onto the rock.

As a former O-Line coach, I must say you are right to a point. We employ a zone blocking scheme. Which has become the newest best thing since Denver used it so well with TD. While yes it looks like its push push, it actually uses double teams and relies on the lineman being able to read the movement of the d-lineman in front of him. The basic principle is on off backside. meaning if I have a man ON me I block him, if I have a man playing off(linebacker) I am responsible for him if he comes to me or plays over the top in pursuit. If I have a man playing inside or backside my responsibility is to make sure the defender doesn’t cross my face before attacking the second level.

This scheme was put into place to combat all the zone blitzing that defenses employ. instead of a man you are responsible for an area. thus cutting down on the big gaps a pulling trapping offense leaves.

The QB takes no more of a pounding in a pulling trapping scheme than he does in a zone scheme. The zone scheme often times leaves the backside DE unblocked. thus creating massive cut back lanes for a rb able to read the movement of the D.

There are calls and schemes within the zone blocking scheme that can be used to give it the look and feel of a trapping offense. it’s up to the lineman themselves to make the calls.

I see the biggest problem being our RB’s are in to much of a hurry to get to the hole. RB’s are coached to go slow to fast through holes in a zone running scheme. Our RB’s are to fast to the hole not allowing the backside cut or the hole to open.

I also see a problem with not allowing the line to get in a rhythm. Big guys too need to get in a groove. You can’t ask them to be passive ten plays in a row then suddenly ask them to knock the snot out of someone. Balance again, is the key. Allow the big guys to get a rhythm and watch the run game grow.

I do agree that a trapping scheme would suit the explosive nature of our backs but blitzing defenses cause major head aches for this type of scheme. The best scheme would be a mix of both based on the style of defense we are facing.

We’ve got a former QB, a former OL coach, a former DB/LB, and what else – come out of the woodwork and tell us if you used to play the football. Maybe our all-time CSC team is right here!!!

I also know nothing of O-line blocking strategy, but I know ours looks amateur. It seems to be very predictable, and “holes” or the rb’s chosen lane, always closes up at or behind the LOS. I was thinking we needed a back that can stand up to a linebacker, but after last night, it seems we need one that can push a defensive end first. Your explanation helps make sense of what the O-line is trying to do, and why it doesn’t seem to work. Thanks.

Did anyone else notice the anger with which Bush played whenever he was able to do something

I’ve always noticed that in Reggie. Thought it was directed at the defense, but you may be right. I’m thinking about how Barry Sanders always praised his linemen (rightfully so). Rarely do we hear Saints running backs mention the O-line. Think PT ever takes them all out to dinner, in gratitude?

All this scorn on Payton, but here’s your culprit:

Coach Kromer

A lot of good points. The run game was really frustrating to watch in the pre-season opener.

Ok, so I watched the first run play after Vilma’s fumble recovery. I can tell you it’s not the coach or the line.

The hole was there! If Reggie follows Evans!!! Shockey had his man stalemated, Brown had his stood up, Evans was through the hole ready to cut off the flowing backer over the top. Reggie cuts it back into three defenders running free!

Patience, Patience, Patience!!!!!!

Christ, I love him but follow the frickin blocking.

Okay, So I have watched the first half of last nights game. All the points made in this post are correct. I truly believe our run game will be improved over last year. I saw some good things. However, I also saw some things that cause me to pull out the remaining few hairs I have left on my head! Our tackles are not power run blockers. They are great pass blockers and position run blockers.

I saw bad angles taken on second/third level defenders. I’m sure that is more a product of the speed of a game as opposed to the speed of practice.

We have to come to grips that we are not now or never shall we be a power running team.

We need to find two or three plays that we can hang our hat on on third and short.

Draws,screens, Reggie in the flat.

I do like the way we run the power/blast play, pulling the backside guard to the front side as a lead blocker on the play-side LB.

I like the play of the interior three lineman Goodwin,Evans and Nicks. Our tackles are definitely employed to protect our golden armed QB. Nothing wrong with that! We just need to find what works to keep the defense honest.

I think we will be fine! It’s not as bad as it looked. It’s actually very close to being very good. Just needs work.

I think the RB’s see the tackles being stood up and look to bounce it out of the hole way to early. They need to trust that they will recover and turn their defender and open the hole.

Like I said it just needs A LOT of WORK!

Thanks for listening. I love this forum!
WHO DAT!!!

Reggie gets the ball and you can see him hesitating looking for the whole but there’s already a man or two pursuing him in the backfield. When he waits for it he gets stuffed. So he chooses to bounce it outside, sometimes he gains a few yards sometimes he doesn’t. Don’t forget this dude is the best college football player we’ve ever seen! So these defenses are determined to not be on a highlight film. The reality is, our line can not run-block. Look at what we did to AP last year. We stuffed him but why? We were putting 8 in the box and we were determined to stop him. So what do you imagine happens with a guy with the same type of rep as AP (not stats, rep = homerun capability) who has an inferior line? I thing O-shuck is spot on. Even PT was having a hard time. In fact did any of our backs average 4ypc? That tells the story.

Players play, coaches coach and who dat nation needs players to step up in BIG time games. Who is it gonna be? WHO DAT!

may be scheme-based, but it’s also personnel-based. Reggie Bush has the directional repertoire of a tetherball. How often have you seen him reach the hash marks, only to cut it back inside with authority? It doesn’t happen and the cut back lanes are sometimes (not always, but SOMETIMES) there. He seems to wait until the realization that he can’t outrun the defender to the corner hits him in the face before he even THINKS about an alternate course of attack. This is field vision. This is a personal shortcoming.

It’s not all on Bush. Payton and Loomis knew they weren’t getting a feature back when they drafted Bush, but they continuously try to use him in that capacity. Why is he still starting games lined up in the backfield? If you plan on running, odds are it’s not going anywhere. If you plan on passing, there are stronger pass blocking RBs on the team. Very few NFL offensive lineman excel at lead blocking on outside runs.

Among tackles, Chris Samuels is probably the best I’ve EVER SEEN at this and Portis still manages to utilize his inside game. Jammal Brown is horrible at sealing off. Stinchcomb is at or below average, while even SUPERB is not good enough to be running it with any given regularly at the pro level. Sure, it’s a great attribute to have for OCCASIONAL deployment. Generally speaking, defensive players are just too smart, too quick and too disciplined to allow it be an effective regularly used means of attack.

The Saints appear to recognize this now. They don’t run Reggie to the outside nearly as often as they did in 2006. He still shows a tendency to bounce it outside when in trouble, though. Which I suppose is just instinct, from having run around the end his entire career at USC. Whether the Saints though they could make an inside runner out of Bush, or they thought Bush, Brown and Stinchcomb were a good enough combination to defy the athleticism of the rest of the league, they thought wrong. To exacerbate the problem, they’re not a very good bunch at run blocking period. Maybe you’re right. Maybe that’s more scheme than personnel.

Regardless, you have an undrafted back who hits the limited holes with at least some semblance of authority and a 2nd overall pick who can’t see them. On top of which, you have a headstrong head coach that appears determined to make it a two-horse race at the position, when it absolutely, positively doesn’t have to be. With this PERSONNEL, we’re never going to have a running game like Carolina. I don’t care what kind of blocking scheme you attempt to deploy. They’re simply mediocre at best players in that department.

Put it this way. I think it’s pretty safe to say that if the OL wasn’t doing such a good job at protecting Brees, there would be major changes going on there. If Bush wasn’t such a major threat in the passing game and return game, he’d either be on the trading block right now or he would be damn close to being cut outright, just as Ki-Jana Carter was after slight over three seasons of doing next to nothing on the ground.

These guys are keeping their heads above water based on their strengths in other areas and there’s nothing wrong with that. But at some point, a more well-rounded player is inevitably going to become available to you at these positions and, as a coach, you have to be able to recognize that. In Bush’s case, you’re talking about a high profile, likeable player that does a whole lot of other stuff well, so that’s going to be a little more difficult to weigh out. In Brown and Stinchcomb’s case, it’s more a matter of the opportunity coming along. And it has, at least twice now.

That’s the part that most frustrates me. Of course, if we were talking about DeAngelo Williams or Maurice Jones-Drew or any of the countless other north-south backs we could have taken in that draft, then maybe a more balanced LT (Ferguson) isn’t as pressing a need. Still, it would have been no more of a luxury pick than taking Bush was at the time. Just not as glamorous. I still have to think we’d have been have at least made it back to the playoffs once these past two years with better run blocking and/or a more steady ground game.

it’s the line and i think the personnel is fine.

[and I know you will]

…but as I understand it, zone blocking is not only a difficult scheme to pick up, it also requires a particular type of player: not huge and powerful (relatively speaking…they’re all huge and powerful compared to me) but quick, mentally and physically. If a line isn’t well-versed in zone blocking, it takes some time to gel as a unit—and success or failure is very much a unit thing rather than individual. What’s more, if a player hasn’t got the physical agility and mental quickness required, he’s not likely to acquire it…ever. It’s not the sort of thing that putting on mass or building up muscle memory can fix. You have to be able to recognize the right adjustment NOW and make it NOW. Wondering what to do for a tenth of a second blows up a play.

If this is all true, I’d say we have a very large unanswered question haunting our offense…but one which we’re likely to see an answer to this year. We may not like that answer.

zone blocking is not only a difficult scheme to pick up,

Just heard it last night: It’s one cut and go for the running back. Who aren’t known for their wunderlic scores anyway.

I thought Denver was all about zone blocking. Their backs aren’t big.

Here, read this and tell me what it means.

that PT almost averaged 4 yards per carry in the first preseason game- he only had 4 carries…..and it was the first game with a new FB and I am SURE that if he carried the ball 10-15 times the production would be better. PT had a good rushing year last year – he averaged 4.8 yards per carry! 4.8 yards per carry is very respectable…it’s NFL starter level. Deuce averaged 3.9 yards per carry, and everyone said he was injured and only a shell of what he was in his prime. And then there is Reggie who averaged 3.8…..Now I am not gonna start the controversy up again, but I am sorry, when your top running back averages 4.8 yards per carry, your rushing game is not anemic! It is respectful. If you add in other running backs and the average gets dragged down…well I don’’t think it’s accurate or fair to implicate PT, Stinchcomb, Jamaal Brown, Carl Nicks etc and say they are not good at running the ball and run blocking. They block for 3 different backs and one of them averages a whole freakin extra yard every play!!! How do you average 4.8 yards per carry if you are not any good at running or run blocking???? THINK ABOUT IT!!!! How many yards per carry do you expect!!!! These guys are human, not robots!! The NFL is Competitive!! Now, if everyone of your running backs averages below 4.0 yards per carry, maybe then you can allege it. Maybe then you have a problem. But if you are averaging almost 5 yards per carry with your top ground gainer, don’t look to fix it- it’s not broken. Not by NFL standards. Be thankful!!

PT “almost” gets 4 yards and yet that’s commendable but when Reggie almost gets it he gets criticized. PT also had another carry so I don’t think it really means anything. Again, PT’s 4.8 yard average is matched by a 15 carries a game while Reggies is matched with 10. when PT was getting carries he wasn’t getting yards. Not to mention the constant D Reggie is facing. We have to include those things if we want to compare the two. Fact is, without an offensive line a running back like Reggie will not live up to the hype.

I’m sure he’s frustrated coming out of college from a team that opens up wide holes and being praised for your vision and ability to make amazing cuts and jukes because of it to going on a team opening up small holes and ppl now say you don’t have vision.

Reggie had almost 4 yards per carry for over 100 carries last year. So, Pierre had 4 carries in the preseason game and performed a little below his average. Reggie’s average is less than 4 yards and he did similar to his average (actually worse)

My point is everyone is saying our offensive line can’t block but it all works fine when PT runs the ball. Maybe it’s not the O Line.

I STILL stutter!

but sounds to me like we are reacting to what the opposig defense does rather than making them react to us. If that is the case then I am all for reform.

cant remember if it was you or ME that doesn’t believe in the word or if you just meant the media but your pretty objective…like your analogy.

its been an obvious problem the last 2 seasons. I think this O-line is just more adept at pass blocking and they do a great job b/c Brees has all day to throw, gets sacked very few times. And i know its the first pre-season game, but its alaming to see the 1st team offense w/Reggie 3 downs inside the 10yd line and didn’t fool anybody, didn’t blow them off the ball,and miss a chip shot FG. Yikes! the 2006 season inside the red zone we were lethal. the Reverses and DR’s worked, teams were fooled. But those are gimmick plays, we’re going to have to run and waste the clock and find a running game, whether its pulling, trapping, run right- block left, or opposite. One running play that the 49ers used to kill us(Walsh/Seifert) with was weak side delay(Run or Pass) we’d think it was going one way and there goes Roger Craig and nobody was home. Now back to Brett Farve news….LOL

could probably open the middle with some help of a true-blood center.

I miss Jeff Faine.

would be rolling in the aisles laughing if they got wind that the assessment is that “Reggie is too fast for the O line” Cmon, now, Reggie is not the first fast guy to enter the NFL. And I doubt if he is the fastest. I never heard of a team yet making excuses for an underperforming running back saying he is too fast. Never ever heard of it. I think you all are just making excuses for Reggie. Ok, think about it “Here’s how we fix the NO running game….’ Reggie you got to slow down, you too damn fast’” Oh my goodness. But, PT is just the right speed. Deuce was the right speed. Aaron Stecker was the right speed. I guess we just need to approach NFL football a little bit slower.

we just disagree. I have never seen so many excuses for why a running back is underperforming. And they are excuses, now, that don’t make sense to me. What makes sense to me is that Reggie doesn’t break tackles unless they are in the open field and they actually are not “real tackling” attempts, they are desperate “grabs” by defenders who Reggie is very elusive to. In the backfield, running bread and butter plays, Reggie doesn’t break tackles well and needs a lot of open space. Once he gets past the DL and LBs, he is dangerous, but, quite honestly, I can’t think of a RB in the NFL who is less likely to break a tackle at the line of scrimmage. It is hard to focus your offense arounfd that type of back and that is why you are seeing 1) so many receivers being emphasized, and 2) the emergence (and need) of a PT or other type of "traditional type of RB)

Reggie is one of the few backs that are quick and fast. He can change speeds with every change of direction…

I was listening to some analyst and he said something about how OJ Simpson was catching the same flack that Reggie was in his first 3 years, then he just blew up. Also, Phil we will never agree on Reggie, never. You still refuse to look at everything as a whole. Quit comparing PT and Reggie. They are not equal! They are different backs, they get different types of attention and they even get different amounts of carries. Until you go and look at Reggie’s numbers vs. PT’s numbers when they get the same bulk of carries on an average (i.e. Reggie’s average for 15+ carries a game vs. PT’s) or until you really look at film and see whole defenses shift towards Reggie on a mere fake because they respect him that much, then quit comparing them. It’s obvious what you think of Reggie, we’re like opposites. I’m his apologist and never really have anything but excuses for him. You never have anything positive to say. We get that but please, stop comparing him to PT. It’s not a fair comparison.

I have many positive things to say about Reggie. He has a huge amount of talent. I have never denied that. He can break long runs and pass plays. But he and PT play the same position. Maybe they shouldn’t but I prefer PT to Reggie because PT doesn’t lose yardage,almost never, and he averages more yardage than Reggie. Additionally, PT can block much better than Reggie and I have not seen too many backs who block worse than Reggie. I have see Brett Farve block better than Reggie.

But what is more significant here, is , that this discussion started where people were disparaging the run blocking ability of the OL and I came to their defense because I believe in them and I used PT as an example of a back that works fine with our OL and Deuce did as well, and Stecker did when he was healthy. Now, without even bringing Reggie up, I don’t think it’s fair to start talking about changing personnel on the OL or saying they are only good pass protectors or whatever when Deuce was fine with them and so was and is PT. To say a running back is too fast for his OL, is just plain silly. That is not the problem. So, we will see. If Reggie starts averaging at least 4.5 yards per carry, I will be glad that he has proven me wrong and that would be fantastic. But, if he continues to average below 4.0 yards per carry, should he be given preferential treatment to be a starter when no other team would really hang their hat on a starting, feature running back who averages less than 4.0 yards per carry? In my opinion, they would not. That seems to be the tipping point.

I’ll give it to you that PT doesn’t lose yards. Put I’ve actually seen Reggie be pretty decent in blocking. This debate is neverending so I agree to disagree.

that very few plays were run off the left side. I can understand Brees rolling out right with Bushrod on his blindside. What I don’t understand is avoiding that direction all together to the extent they did. If anyone has the game TiVoed, I’d love to get a breakdown on that. The optimist’s take on that is pretty obvious. Evans and Stinchcomb aren’t likely going anywhere barring injury, so any starboard success is grounds for a toast. The pessimist would be quick to point out that the coaching staff seems to lack confidence in the left side. How can you properly evaluate Bushrod’s run blocking, if you’re constantly headed in the opposite direction? Also, how long will it take before other teams catch on to this tendency, if indeed it is a tendency?