Saints Training Camp Update: Day Eight

by Saintsational on Aug 7, 2009 6:08 PM CDT Comment 16 comments

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therealJShock some serious heat outside today!! wear your sunblock and drink up...

reggie_bush Have you ever been so hungry that your stomach feels like it's touching your back? Man I would destroy a In-N-Out Burger right now! LMAO!!!

therealJShock everyone try to make it to our scrimmage tomm!! think it starts at 230 should be fun.. We all are putting in hard work and long hours..

CSCtweet @therealJShock The Black and Gold Scrimmage has been closed to the public. Wish we could!

JeremyShockey sorry peps its closed!!! guess you will have to wait for the cincy

jeffduncantp Injury update from morning: Brown/Goodwin, heat-related. Not serious. Sharper lower leg, knee or hammy. No official report on Sharper yet.

jeffduncantp Just finished with annual rules session with NFL officials. Not a lot of major changes this year. Most conspicuous: No more wedges on KOR.

jeffduncantpInjury updates per Payton: Sharper has a busted bursa sac in his right knee. Not serious. Gay expected to return to practice on Monday.

jeffduncantpSix Saints will be held out of Black & Gold scrimmage on Saturday: D. Campbell, A. Arrington, R. Bush, L. Moore, D. Sharper, & R. Gay

Linkage

Saints: Friday Morning Practice Report - NewOrleans.com

"We've been practicing pretty hard," said Saints running back Reggie Bush. "(The scrimmage) will be a good chance to see where we're at and to gauge ourselves."

-Reggie Bush

Training Camp, Day 8: Release of the Wildcat! Bush rests...and more - WWL

Kristian: Hargrove says he has "to get it right" with the Saints - WWL

"I had about 17 months to get my act together, I had to admit a lot of things, and I did."

-Anthony Hargrove

Deke: TE Billy Miller wants that ring - WWL

"This game is all about opportunities. When you get an opportunity to make plays, you have to make them. Whether you're a ten year veteran or a rookie, if you're called on you have to make the play."

-Billy Miller

"I don't pay attention to numbers. While the season is going on, I don't look at how many catches I have, I just worry about getting better. I just want to win a Super Bowl ring. I don't care if I catch two passes or two hundred. I just want to win a ring!"

-Billy Miller

"I think it's amazing how he spreads the ball around. That's what makes him such a great quarterback. He does not look for one guy. He doesn't telegraph his passes. Drew looks for the open guy and we all go out and try and make the play."

-Billy Miller

"I want to work on pass protection. Defensive Ends in the league are so much bigger and faster now days. I have to be ready to take on some of the best in the game every Sunday."

-Billy Miller

"No offense to what we had here last year, but it's night and day. It's very competitive out there every day. I can remember a time when it was a little easier for us to go out there on offense and move the ball against our defense. It has become a challenge for us to do that now."

-Billy Miller

Video: Henderson: Could Harrington be challenging for the No. 2 QB spot? - WWL

Day Eight Practice Notebook - New Orleans Saints official website

Greer Challenging All Comers - New Orleans Saints official website

"I am just used to cooling down with some stretches that I think help the muscles," Greer remarked, "It helps keep the legs fresh for the afternoon workouts."

-Jabari Greer

"I want more," Greer said of the interceptions. "I go out every single practice with the goal of getting interceptions, breaking up passes and making plays. That’s what I expect of myself and what I want my teammates to expect of me."

-Jabari Greer

"There are not too many, if any, quarterbacks that are as good as Drew Brees. There is a reason he is so good and that’s because he works so hard and studies so hard. So if I want to be one of the best at my position, doesn’t it just make sense that to get to that level that I need to work against the best every single day?"

-Jabari Greer

"I will gladly walk up to them in the locker room after practice and congratulate them if they make a play on me in practice," Greer said. "But not on the field. That’s competition and I’m out there to prevent them for doing what they are trying to do. I take it seriously and will battle."

-Jabari Greer

"He is a guy that makes a competition out of everything. I think he even tries to stretch better than the next guy."

-Jabari Greer, on Robert Meachem

"When you line up and play together, things start to become second nature and you know exactly where your teammates are going to be," he said. "That’s why we are out here in 100 degree heat and busting our butts. I can assure you that there are a lot easier training camps in the NFL to be a part of compared to this. But, we know we are doing this for a reason. This is hard, hard work. Tedious, tiring and grueling. But, at the same time, are we getting better? Yes, no doubt in my mind."

-Jabari Greer

New Orleans Saints break out "Wildcat" formation at morning practice - Times-Pic

Practice and heat take toll on three New Orleans Saints players - Times-Pic

New Orleans Saints quarterback Joey Harrington shines in morning practice - Times-Pic

"I feel like I'm starting to get to the point, prior to the snap, where I'm understanding the intricate details of the installations,'' Harrington said. "I'm starting to feel real comfortable, you know, where things are slowing down for me.''

-Joey Harrington

New Orleans Saints training camp Friday photo gallery - Times-Pic

Deke: STC Day 8/Practice 1 - WWL

Tavern talk: Worst game managers - National Football Post

5. Sean Payton: Sean doesn’t mismanage games as much as he lacks an ability to close them out. Last year, the Saints lost five games by a combined total of 13 points. Losing too many close games will cause you to re-evaluate how you approach game management. If the Saints excel in this area this year, they might be hosting a NFC Championship game. If they improve in this area, they will be tough to beat with that offense.

Jim Henderson: Saints going to the Super Bowl - WWL

"I think the Saints are going to win the Super Bowl, put it right there, Deke,"

Video

Jeff Duncan New Orleans Saints training camp video log, Day 9 (Aug. 7, 2009)

Bobby Hebert talks about Joey Harrington

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Comments

I don't get

the “no wedge on KOR” rule change. Can anybody tell me the potential danger or unfairness of the wedge? It seems like the most obvious formation to take in the scenario, and I just don’t understand the problem.

by FuSoYa on Aug 7, 2009 4:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I couldn't explain the physics of it

but it’s a dangerous play. It’s how Kevin Everett of the Bills was paralyzed.

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by Saintsational on Aug 7, 2009 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Imagine two freight trains colliding, deliberately

That’s the wedge. It’s especially dangerous because the only way to deal with it is to detail several members of the kickoff team to sacrifice their bodies in order to “bust the wedge.” Rookies and marginal players with something to prove feel it’s the only way to distinguish themselves, so they sacrifice with gusto. And they get injured, sometimes very badly.

"Man, these fans are off the charts."
--Drew Brees

by MtnExile on Aug 7, 2009 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That could be said of any KOR man to man block

Is it just too much of a helmet-to-helmet magnet? I mean, the wedge is essentially a moving offensive line. I don’t want guys to get hurt unnecessarily, but the wedge just seems very much like a “football move” to me. Just wondering what makes it especially dangerous.

by FuSoYa on Aug 7, 2009 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heh. In formation you are right on. But you neglect to consider momentum, which is what makes you so far off base.

In the typical OL formation — we can only consider a running play because on a pass play the OL is retreating not advancing — the amount of acceleration is limited to the microscopic amount that can be burst-generated in a half second or so between the time the ball is snapped and the time the OL-man hits the DL-man he’s up against. Not a lot of acceleration at all and almost zero momentum.

On a wedge formation, you instead have a few massive guys accelerating as fast as they can over the second or two since the returner caught the ball. At the same time you have the “wedge busters” who have been accelerating as fast as they could for five whole seconds. Although they are usually LBs and a bit smaller they are still big guys in the mid 200s. I don’t know the precise mathematical formula but it goes something like weight * momentum and you get a VERY big number out of that. Both sides have a TON of momentum, and when the two hit the impact is bone-rattling. The average guy on the street would spend a month in the hospital with all his ribs cracked or even shattered. These guys usually survive but are sore for days afterwards and all they did was participate in about 5 or so real minutes of actual playing time (and even less game-clock time).

The helmet to helmet was probably also a small bit but frankly chest to chest, or chest to shoulder if they didn’t hit quite square (and you actually tried not to), was almost as bad. A lot of people got hurt on this type of play and lost whatever chances they had for a longer career.

by FriarBob on Aug 8, 2009 12:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So, basically

since the players are all bunched together from the onset of the play, a greater than one-on-one (two-on-one, three-on-one, three-on-two, etc.) collision is more likely — and inherently more dangerous — than say, those same two or three players racing down the field and intentionally converging on one player? I see what you’re saying, I’m just not sure I’m buying into the logic of singling the wedge out as the root of that problem. There should just be a penalty for multiple-on-one contact on kickoffs and punts, when the ball carrier isn’t involved.

by coldpizza on Aug 8, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It would be problematical to enforce such a rule

There are so many collisions that entire groups routinely get tangled up. And how do you define “when the ball carrier isn’t involved”? Besides which, the purpose of the wedge is precisely to protect the ball carrier—so such a rule would exempt the wedge.

But using the wedge has now become essentially an illegal formation penalty; so it’s just as easy to enforce as having only six men on the line of scrimmage. It doesn’t matter why you did it, what you intended, or whether or not you even did it on purpose…it’s an illegal formation. Period.

"Man, these fans are off the charts."
--Drew Brees

by MtnExile on Aug 8, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let me clarify

“when the ball carrier isn’t involved IN THE COLLISION”. Not sure why that would be so difficult to enforce. You just don’t double (triple, etc) team block on kickoffs. Give every player without the ball the same halo you’re taught to give the returner before he touches the ball himself.

As is, I’m not sure how much simplicity of enforcement factors in, when teams aren’t lined up in the wedge at the onset of the play. It’s typically something that forms as they’re advancing down the field. A little easier to spot that a multiple-on-one block obviously, but if it doesn’t adequately protect against the injuries it’s supposedly in place to protect, then what good is it? I guess maybe I’m jumping the gun with that question, as it may cut down on the injuries significantly. Somehow, I doubt it.

Even if the wedge was truly a pre-play recognizable formation infraction, labeling it a “dangerous play” (and enforcing it as such), seems like it would be comparable to doing a study, determining that 99% of defensive players involved in hits that blow out QBs knees began those plays lined up in a three point stance, then subsequently banning the three point stance. Was the three point stance designed to blow out players’ knees? Will the ban accomplish anything, if the player is hellbent on making his opponent resemble Joe Theismann from the calf down?

Like I said, unless you’re talking onside kicks, how the coverage team and/or return teams line up at the onset of the play doesn’t truly dictate squat. All this rule is going to do is force special teams coaches to disguise their methods of blocking/coverage a little better and hope that the refs don’t identify it as a wedge.

by coldpizza on Aug 8, 2009 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

correction

Give every player already being blocked the same halo you’re taught to give the returner before he touches the ball.

by coldpizza on Aug 8, 2009 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also, God I hope Young is catching up with his new assignment quickly. Or maybe Prioleau will move up if Sharper’s got problems? If we can’t field a legitimate FS for yet another year, I think we should just adopt a base formation that doesn’t include one. A 4-4? Or a 3-3-5 with one safety and 4 corners.

by FuSoYa on Aug 7, 2009 4:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'd sure like to know Lombardi's evidence for putting Payton up there at #5

Losing close games is one thing, but lumping them all together and calling it “not being able to close out games” and mis-managing seems a bit oversimplified to me.

I’d be interested to hear what others think about this with actual facts to back it up with depth.

It seemed like Payton worked it right in 06 vs. Philly in the reg. season, when we closed the game by marching right down and kicking the winning FG with :00 on the clock. Was that his high-water mark?

"Look, I'm not a -- -- -- -- savior." - Gregg Williams

by HansDat on Aug 7, 2009 5:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Payton doesn't deserve to be no.5 out of 32.

First of all, I don’t much care for Lombardi’s analysis of anything. He gets paid to write these posts, so he just throws a dart at a board to decide what to write about and then just fills up some space. When I saw his post, the thing that came to mind for me was the way Payton sometimes challenges calls and plays where he has a very low chance of winning the challenge. The losing close games thing was mostly a problem of defense (also poor run blocking; injured players on IR) and that problem has been addressed with the hiring of Gregg Williams. It’s not even like Payton made all that many bad challenges, so this no. 5 ranking is BS.

Payton’s a smart guy who acknowledges his mistakes, so you know he’s thought about his approach to challenging calls and will probably make better decisions this year.

"He has got a good ol' boy sense of humor, but he has also got a good ol' boy sense of kick you in the ass, too,"--Gregg Williams describing Bill Johnson. The D WILL ROCK THIS YEAR!

by satchmo26 on Aug 7, 2009 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like Lombardi

sometimes, sorta. He has a lot of insight into the inner workings of an NFL front office, which can be useful info at times. But I don’t always agree with his opinions, as in ranking Payton the fifth-worst game manager in the league.

On the other hand, he shows little love for Andy Reid, who I have always thought was a TERRIBLE game manager. He gets the genius treatment from almost every media hack, which is extremely irritating because it reminds me that they never quote me on this matter.

"Man, these fans are off the charts."
--Drew Brees

by MtnExile on Aug 7, 2009 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs