Dude, Where's my Run Game?
by Dave Cariello on Dec 20, 2010 9:01 AM CST
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PrintWhat...the hell...was that?
Let me get this straight: Chris Ivory - the undrafted rookie free agent running back and former fourth-stringer who improbably earned a roster spot on the team this year - is out with injury and the entire run game shuts down as if there's no other player on the bench to replace him? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the rushing attack supposed to get better when your starting backs are healthy and carrying the load once again? Isn't that how it works?
That's a lot of questions, I know and I apologize, but that's all I'm left with following yesterday's incredibly lopsided offensive play calling by Payton and the Saints. Never mind the Ravens, with their 39 rushing plays to only 20 passing attempts. Because believe it or not, as off-balance as that may be, the Saints ran an even more disproportionate offense with 46 pass attempts and only fourteen rushing plays.
Fourteen!?! That's absurd. The lowest total number of rushing plays in a game this season for the Saints. In other words, the Saints have never been more unbalanced. The only other two times this season the Saints didn't eclipse the 20 play mark on the ground was against the Falcons (16) and Browns (18). We know how those games turned out. High five! While that may not necessarily prove causation, it certainly illustrates a correlation.
Here's another question: Why aren't the Saints using my boy Pierre Thomas more? He wasn't listed on Friday's injury report so we can only assume the ankle injury is a non-factor. In a Times-Pic article this Tuesday titled, "New Orleans Saints running back Pierre Thomas is back, big time" Drew Brees said...
It was great to have him back. Obviously, we missed him. We're glad he's healthy, glad to have him back.
And ESPN's Pat Yasinskas had him listed as a rising stock in the NFC South. Yet Thomas finished yesterday's game with only seven total touches. Interestingly enough, those seven touches tie him for a team high yesterday; it's not like he isn't getting his fair share of chances.
So if it's not a question of injury or an issue of favoritism, then we can only assume that the Saints asymmetrical play calling was either the plan from the get go or a poor job by Payton in-game. Either way, I'm incredibly confused and equally pissed. It's not the first time. I want the run game back and I want it done with more Pierre Thomas. But don't look to me for answers. I thought for sure that a heavy dose of the rushing attack by one or all of the teams running backs was going to be just what the doctor ordered on a cold and windy Baltimore day.
I might have even been right. We'll never know.
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I also would like to know as well Dave
Why didn’t they use Pierre more in the run game? Or even draw plays? Unbalanced for sure. And too many 3 and outs will not help win ball games. When we tied the game at 24. I thought for sure we had the momentum in our favor.
We held the Ravens to a 3 and out, got really good field postion, and couldn’t convert on a 3rd and 3. That’s pretty pathetic in my book. When you have all these “offensive weapons” and convert on these 3rd downs, it leaves me with alot of unanswered questions. Our run defense is pretty horrific. How are they going to stop Michael Turner if they can’t tackle?
Let’s not forget, the offense hasn’t been consistent by any means. It’s been Hot or Cold. And the batted balls at the line of scrimmage is about to drive me nuts.
Your one and only..Professional Sports Blogger!
Grammar fail check
and convert on these 3rd downs
Changed to: and “Can’t” convert on these 3rd downs
Your one and only..Professional Sports Blogger!
It was the black pants.
Not really. I don’t know if Payton over did it on trying to take advantage of Baltimore’s weak secondary or what, but it was pretty frustrating. To be fair, there were a number of dropped passes in the first half, and Drew didn’t seem quite as sharp.
In an argument of run versus pass, drops should be considered one of the downsides to passing. They come with the territory. To be fair, you can’t drop a pass that’s never thrown.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Re: #25 ... CUT THAT CHUMP.
“Only three things can happen when you pass the ball, and two of them are bad.” – General Robert Neyland.
I think that was his game plan from the beginning.
And he was inflexible. Not to mention with us being down we needed to get back in the game however we weren’t running when from the beginning. As I mentioned earlier. You run against a defense like this with some sort of deception. They are pretty good at stopping it, Payton, being the guy who loves to pass, should have used that to his advantage and brought the draws and delays in to counter the Ravens over-pursuance. The O-line was horrid. I may be a Reggie apologist but I’m objective enough to admit it when he screws up and I’m sorry, whenever he got the ball he was being hit. Of course he’s gonna have negative yardage, he’s getting pitches! Pitches put you 3-5 yards back!!! The Ravens were in his face on those screens as they were with everybody. Payton gave up on his running game! Face it, this is his tendency, look at all of the L’s we’ve taken over the years, I guarantee we ran the ball less than 45% of the time. It’s his achilles heel. And I don’t think Ivory being out means anything! Yall can jock Ivory all yall want but we’ve seen PT do what Ivory has done before and we’ve touted him. Shoot, there was a game or two last year that Bell was beasting it and he was getting all the fairweather attention our RB’s tend to get from fans at that time. Forget looking at the actual film and seeing how our opponent was penetrating the line with authority. Forget looking at the number of times we DIDN’T run the ball and thus no true allowance of a groove to be established to get a run game going. Forget that, no we want to blame someone! I appreciate this Dave, you posted the picture of the true person to blame. It wasn’t Drew’s INT, or Reggie’s -1 yards rushing, it was Payton passing too much. And I’ll say this, if he doesn’t change his tune, we will not even return to the superbowl. Mark my words!
2010 is cuzzin's breakout year...run with that chip bruh!
What I find funny
The biggest comeback was the Dolphins game, where we effectively ran the ball even down 2-3 scores. Then used play-action. By the 4th quarter their defense was gassed and we could impose our will on the Miami D. We didn’t even try that yesterday.
Week 16 matchup: Falcons
Week 16 motto: BLACK PANTS MUST BE BURNED!!
Have a Merry Christmas
by Jon Banks on Dec 20, 2010 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
Payton seemed to game plan with the idea that the Ravens would be nearly impossible to run on and much easier to pass on. It was tough sledding to run on them and our O-line had problems with their D-line. The Ravens won the battle in the trenches and ultimately won the game as a result. But, had Colston been able to haul in some of those long passes, we could have kept those drives going and maybe scored more points. Not totally blaming Colston as he was covered very well, but at least three of those he had a chance to catch and I seem to remember one on the final drive that would have gotten us the first down and avoided that INT.
Where we really lost the game was on defense. The announcers kept saying that Jim Harbough said his guys finally figured out the proper timing in their run game and our guys looked ill-prepared for it. Had they not let Rice run loose in the second quarter, we wouldn’t have been forced to throw, throw, throw in order to catch up with them.
It’s a shame Lance Moore’s incredible catch came in a game we couldn’t quite win. That was a spectacular display of focus and concentration.
"As soon as Tony (Dungy) said we had no chance, I knew we had 'em right where we wanted 'em"--Coach Sean Payton right after Super Bowl XLIV with the Lombardi Trophy firmly in hand. WHO DAT!!
by David "Satch" Kelly on Dec 20, 2010 9:58 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Same gameplan as the Vikings game this year.
Too worried about attacking their strengths, we didn’t try to even keep the defense honest.
Week 16 matchup: Falcons
Week 16 motto: BLACK PANTS MUST BE BURNED!!
Have a Merry Christmas
Weaknesses you mean. And you’re right. Generally speaking, successful teams don’t play to their own strengths, nor do they play to their opponents’ weaknesses. They play balanced football. Those strengths and weaknesses should merely serve as indicators to which areas said team should focus on improving … be it in the second half, over the next week of practice, during the offseason, what have you. The point being that every game is different. Not saying you shouldn’t have a game plan or seek out Achilles heels, just don’t sell out in any one direction. Unless, you’re getting blown out. Then, it really doesn’t matter how you go about it.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Re: #25 ... CUT THAT CHUMP.
Yeah
Was thinking of one thing and wrote down another. And agreed 100%.
Week 16 matchup: Falcons
Week 16 motto: BLACK PANTS MUST BE BURNED!!
Have a Merry Christmas
hmmmm....
“Generally speaking, successful teams don’t play to their own strengths, nor do they play to their opponents’ weaknesses.”
Seems to me the Ravens “played to”/attacked/exploited one of our weaknesses (run defense) using one of their strengths (running the ball).
"You can't be king of the world, if you're a slave to the grind."
Agree with your comment about Moore's catch.
Too bad such an incredible play gets lost in a losing effort.
Another thing Taydigga
We had a 7-0 lead early in the game. Then boom! down 21-7. Ray Rice started running all over us and 3rd down conversions started killing us. We kept on going 3 and out. And with all the offensive weapons we have, that’s inexcusable
Your one and only..Professional Sports Blogger!
I clicked "Buy Photo" ...
under Payton’s picture and heard a toilet flush. What’s up with that?
I’m gonna run this bit into the ground, btw. It’s my version of steep decline.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Re: #25 ... CUT THAT CHUMP.
I have a theory about Pierre
When the Ravens started to put pressure on us, I was waiting for that patented screen pass to Pierre. It never came. Let’s not forget that he just came back from a “not” high ankle sprain. He really didn’t get a lot of carries last week either. Yesterday, he was also forced into returning kicks due to Courtney Roby’s injury. I think they may have decided to limit his touches on offense since he already had to handle the return duties. This is just my opinion. Not trying to defend the playcalling or anything, just trying to figure out the reasoning.
Peyton, I can eat Oreos faster than you!!!!
Yupp
When Brees was under constant siege, I kept wondering why no screen pass, or a stretch play to the right side? Instead it was just more passes, with Brees being forced to pass under pressure and it started to show.
Week 16 matchup: Falcons
Week 16 motto: BLACK PANTS MUST BE BURNED!!
Have a Merry Christmas
Doesn't matter who gets that screen...
They were on it! Screens work better with PT, in my opinion, because he doesn’t get as much focus. But watching this game, them fools (Ravens) were in our draws!
2010 is cuzzin's breakout year...run with that chip bruh!
Yes they were. The Ravens are a very hard team to screen or run against because their front seven, old as it is and not nearly as good as it used to be, is still very good. Which Peyton knew. Yet morons on this forum continue to insist that we should attack their strengths just because it’s “smart football”.
Whatever.
As opposed to the non-morons who can’t grasp the importance of a balanced attack, no matter how many games we lose — or come precariously close to losing — because of it? Pittsburgh is even MORE successful in shutting down the run, yet we “only” passed the ball 67.7% of the time INDOORS and WON. I say “only” despite the fact that the Jets managed to beat the Steelers IN PITTSBURGH passing “only” 59.2% of the time. Surely they accomplished this by playing to their own strengths playing to the Steelers’ weaknesses playing a balanced game on offense. Regardless, the Saints won, so you can’t knock the unneccessary passing TOO much, right? Well, they didn’t win THIS time! And they were playing a team WEAKER against the run. And they were playing in a WINDY stadium, where it’s always going to be more difficult to pass. But none of that matters. Baltimore is “good”, so that means we should pass EVEN MORE. Nice sound logic there, morons. Suck on the L. It stands for Lopsided (playcalling) just as much as it does for Loss.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Re: #25 ... CUT THAT CHUMP.
No, they played to their strengths. Does anybody — non-moron or moron alike — think that the Sanchize is truly a franchise quarterback, or even a good one yet? If so, they need to be committed.
We don’t have an OL this year, and we don’t have a good RB. Period. We have to win with what we have, not with wishes and fairy dust and “brilliant ideas” pulled out of your arse.
If you don’t think Sanchez is a franchise QB, then how can you possibly say they played to their strengths? 59.2% is STILL pass heavy!
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Re: #25 ... CUT THAT CHUMP.
We have the same OL we had last year. We also have the same RBs, with the exception of Bell, and Ivory is averaging more yards per carry than Bell was. You’re basing your opinions on results and those results are based on the current misusage of personnel. Period. Why are you so quick to give Payton the benefit of the doubt? He hasn’t won any more championships than his running game has.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Re: #25 ... CUT THAT CHUMP.
Fine, we didn’t have a good RB in that game.
And the same OL doesn’t mean jack squat. They played very well last year and they are sucking this year. Just like several other teams in general, including, for example, the Bengals and the Panthers. Among others.
Just because it’s the same people doesn’t mean jack SQUAT. The entire Steelers team returned after their last SB win and they missed the playoffs entirely and nearly had a losing record. Mostly the same Saints team in 2007 and we DID miss the playoffs and DID have a losing record.
What matters is how well the people play, not the names on their jerseys.
You’re right, and I contend that they’d be playing a whole lot better with a balanced attack. Even when Pierre and Reggie were out, the run didn’t abandon us … Payton abandoned the run. Not completely obviously, but far moreso than he was willing to last season. Look at the ypc of Betts, Jones, Ivory … there’s absolutely nothing to suggest that we’ve been any worse off in that area of the game, aside from the frequency in which it’s been utilized. He’s reverted back to the Xbox kid, circa 2007-08. In doing so, we’re extremely fortunate to be above .500.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Re: #25 ... CUT THAT CHUMP.
“We don’t have an OL this year, and we don’t have a good RB. Period. "
I don’t disagree with this, btw. That’s why I’ve been praying for them to draft a franchise LT and franchise RB every April since 2006. Personnel decisions are part of coaching, as well. If you thought you had a stable of dependable, productive backs based on what you’ve seen through the 2009 season, you were wrong. Not only wrong, but delusional. Go back and look at the parade of RBs we’ve passed on since drafting Deuce nearly 2001. It’ll make you sick to your stomach. Even 2006-present is enough to make me dry heave, if I think about it too much. With Brees at QB and any one of a NUMBER of backs + a guy or two like Pierre and Ivory as complementary pieces to that puzzle, we could have EASILY won a SB with a Gary Gibbs led defense. Our WRs are basically all a product of this offensive scheme. Even Terrance Copper was putting up comparable numbers and hasn’t done jack since. It should have been glaringly apparent after just one season that Bush wasn’t the future of this running game, yet they’ve been attempting to tread water ever since with the same old just-good-enough-to-get-by cast of undrafted and overdrafted talent. All that being said, it IS enough to get by and now Payton’s evidently not even content enough with them to sit back and let that be. Tinker, tinker, tinker. F tinkering. Run the ball. When the drat rolls around again, fix the Fing problem once and for all, then continue to run the ball. “But Brees is a franchise QB!!!!!!1” Yeah? Well, so Fing what? Troy Aikman was a franchise QB. That didn’t stop Dallas from drafting and/or running the hell out of Emmitt Smith. A 12 gauge shotgun doesn’t wither away into a b.b. gun, just because you have it stored away in your hall closet. If and when we need Brees to win games, he’s still going to be the same guy that’s capable of doing just that. It doesn’t have to be on 24/7 display, week after week after week. Marino and Fouts aren’t the two HOF QBs anyone should be emulating and that’s exactly what Payton is pushing Brees closer and closer towards every year he leads the league in number of passing attempts.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Re: #25 ... CUT THAT CHUMP.
Well technically we DID draft that franchise LT last offseason — or at least somebody who should be him. Unfortunately, he seems to be hurt. Either that, or he’s on the list as an excuse not to play him. Or maybe he’s just not ready. Heck all three could be part true. Whatever the reason, he isn’t playing. And that needs to change. Maybe next year.
And while I understand that continuity is considered VERY important to the line, when Bushrod sucks it up THAT badly it’s time to do something differently. And frankly as much as I like Stinch as a person, he’s also getting old and slow and sucky…ish…. We need to replace both tackles in the fairly near future, preferably next offseason.
We also drafted a potential center of the future who has looked very good, but again he’s not playing. I like Goodwin, but he’s also almost as old as Farve. OK, not quite, but close enough. There comes a time when the new guy has to play. And I’m thinking next year is time for Tennant. Keep Goody for another year to mentor him and perhaps sub in if he struggles, but otherwise it’s time. And if we have locked up a playoff berth, I’m also strongly in favor of letting him play at least some of the time against Tampa just to get his feet wet.
I partly disagree on the RB tho. I still think that the RB is made by the line and not the other way around. We DO need to look at a POWER back perhaps, but not waste a 1st round pick on him. The problem is more that Tusk can’t stay healthy. We need to find a way to make him Emmett instead of Marion Barber. Or we need to draft somebody who could. But I’m not in favor of using the 1st rounder on that. Maybe 2nd if there’s a guy we like who others are stupid enough to pass on because of character concerns that we are sure are crap. (Please note the entire phrase there.)
But we have to fix the OL first. Then even our current backs will be better and whomever else we get will also be much better as well.
Like I said yesterday:
In a cold weather climate game, you run the football. Plain and simple.
Ivory may have been out, but they could have used PT and Betts and Jones, and used Strief as a “H-back eligible”. to replace David Thomas.
There’s just simply no excuse. Payton thought that he could throw his way out of trouble, and it came back and bit him.
Also…they may want to find a decent kickoff returner with some speed to relieve PT until Roby returns.
Anthony
Personally, the offensive gameplan is not what I have a problem with
For me, its the defensive playcalling that was driving me nuts. Almost every big run in the first half came on a play where we were blitzing. We would get too far upfield and leave gaping…..GAPING, holes behind the blitz. Will Smith and Alex Brown were just pushing upfield and not setting the edge in the running game. On one play that I think went for a TD, Scott Shanle was probably 5 yards in the backfield and let Rice run right in the hole behind him. There was no reason for him to be so far upfield.
Peyton, I can eat Oreos faster than you!!!!
Why is Julius JOnes even on the field anymore? And the screen pass to Bush late in the fourth which got blow’d up. If your gonna run a screen use Pierre. As long as Payton is the coach always remember the Saints are two bad running plays from abandoning the running game entirely.
So you're telling me...
Pierre would’ve been able to avoid all those people who were in his face when Reggie got the ball? The line sucked yesterday!! No Ivory, Bush or Thomas would’ve changed that!
2010 is cuzzin's breakout year...run with that chip bruh!
Agreed. That play was on Drew, not Reggie. He should have either checked off to another receiver or threw it over Bush’s head, out of bounds. They’re both lucky Sheldon Brown doesn’t play for Baltimore, or it would have been deja vu all over again.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Re: #25 ... CUT THAT CHUMP.
Seriously!
Was thinking the same thing! I always think of that on plays like that!
2010 is cuzzin's breakout year...run with that chip bruh!
one of our problems is...
we are capable of beating any team in the league and throwing the ball 49 times and rushing 14 times. We actually came close yesterday. But, it’s not a good way to go. This was like Payton ’08 when he did this stuff. Like in Tampa in a monsoon. I thought he leaned- last year he used balance and it seemes he had learned.
if we run more often, our pass blocking gets a boost. Also- Drew has the ability to check down, audible and turn the play into a run play. He didn’t seem to do so. He was part of the problem yesterday.
If Pro is the opposite of Con, what is the opposite of Progress? Congress!
-Men's Restroom - House of Representatives, Washington, DC
This is a beautiful problem to have.
Y’all realize we’re starting to sound like Patriots fans, right?
We lost on the road to a playoff-caliber team in cold weather by less than a touchdown. (Minus their garbage time score, it was a field goal.) We still have strong playoff chances, we still have Drew Brees and Colston.
And yet we are baffled at the ignorance of Sean Payton and Gregg Williams?
We didn’t play our best, but we’re still in good shape. Nobody in the world will pick us to beat the Falcons in Atlanta. I kinda like it that way.
In the immortal words of Socrates, "I drank what?"
by SaintSooner on Dec 20, 2010 11:56 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
BOOM! rec'd it!
Keep hope alive!
"As soon as Tony (Dungy) said we had no chance, I knew we had 'em right where we wanted 'em"--Coach Sean Payton right after Super Bowl XLIV with the Lombardi Trophy firmly in hand. WHO DAT!!
by David "Satch" Kelly on Dec 20, 2010 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
Really? Most of what I’ve read, the pundits actually had us beating Atlanta on Monday night. Not that Banks, Yasinkas and King are considered “great minds” in a lot of regard. Wouldn’t surprise me if it’s a 50/50 split this week. If we actually think we’re “flying under the radar”…we’re only kidding ourselves.
"Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not 'every man for himself.' And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked 'em up."
For what it's worth...
…most of my big problem with football reporting, college or pro, is that it seems to be centered around an ability to predict the future. The Cleveland Browns beat the Saints and the Patriots. Appalachian State beat Michigan in the Big House. Cliched as it is, there is a reason why you play the game.
But yeah, when was the last time you saw Atlanta lose at home? At the NFL level, every team has talent, but they’re playing with something to prove every bit as much as we were last year.
I would love nothing better than to stain their dream season, don’t get me wrong. I’m just saying that the smart money would be on their side.
I do think we’re flying under the radar, but I admit it’s certainly possible that I’m kidding myself. More than anything, I just don’ think that what fans, bloggers, and sportswriters think is going to happen has much to do with anything that actually happens. (N.B., my Sooners are currently 17 point favorites against Connecticut in the Fiesta Bowl, and this terrifies me.)
In the immortal words of Socrates, "I drank what?"
Last time I saw ATL lose at home: 12/13/09
That was a good day. Let’s do it again next week!
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200912130atl.htm
"I hear the question, and I'm not going to answer it," Gregg Williams
Flying under the radar
If that’s the case, why didn’t the fans/media pay more attention to our game on Sunday? The radar has us locked into #5 seed. The radar is looking for moving targets.
"I hear the question, and I'm not going to answer it," Gregg Williams
The fans/media paid lots of attention to our game on Sunday.
You’re confusing fans and media with the owners of cable networks. The Panthers and Cleveland Browns can each split the next 2 Super Bowls against each other and then meet the next year tied at 11-2….they’re still going to show Philly/Giants because of the numbers.
"Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not 'every man for himself.' And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked 'em up."
NYG-PHI was a natural for game of the week
divisional rivalry, Ron Mexico, playoff implications. I get that. I really didn’t see as much attention being paid to our game as I would have thought, even on blogs or facebook. Too many divisional games with playoff implications, versus an intraconference game with 2 teams that will likely be in the postseason.
"I hear the question, and I'm not going to answer it," Gregg Williams
Think you hit the nail on the head with your last sentence.
"Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not 'every man for himself.' And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked 'em up."
“We didn’t play our best…”
NOW IS THE TIME to be playing our best, to set us up for success in the playoffs.
I’m not “baffled at the ignorance of SP/GW”, but if we can play/plan/playcall better, then we should.
A loss is not just a notch in a column on a stat sheet. It affects the attitude of the entire team… which affects futures practices and future games.
"You can't be king of the world, if you're a slave to the grind."
The run
on both sides of the ball killed us. The D looked like last years run D and we couldn’t or should I say chose not to really try and run the ball.
And am I the only one that thinks that Bush should rejoin his old college coach and let them give us a good 2 draft picks? Hey I’m just saying.
IF a team was willing to take on Bush’s salary (huge if), I think his worth would be something along the lines of what we got for Stallworth. A third or fourth round pick and a backup player. Which actually isn’t terrible, when you consider we already have two 3rd round picks. Five selections in the Top 100 (or thereabouts) could do wonders for this team, provided Loomis doesn’t politely bundle them together and trade up for another DT.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Re: #25 ... CUT THAT CHUMP.
Well let’s not go that far. Does the defense tackle have “Dareus” in his name?
"Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not 'every man for himself.' And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked 'em up."
It was an ugly and disappointing game.
After several weeks of making steady improvements, things just fell apart. Tusk was missed, at least by me. I’d like to see what he could have done in that game. Reggie? Reggie, Reggie, Reggie. He hasn’t shown much since coming back from injury. I absolutely HATE Pierre returning kick offs. It seems like an unnecessary risk. I don’t know who I’d put back there, but definitely not PT. The defense was awful. Just awful. I can’t believe they got run over like that…constantly. I really thought they’d pull this one out and get the the win. I thought that up until the final play. I didn’t give up on them. The rest of the day pretty much sucked.
"It's better to burn out than fade away."
Such an oxymoron
of a day. GREAT church day. Choir was on fire, preacher brought his A game and all my boys back home were texting me to keep me up on the game. I get home, the first play I see is that long cussing run by Ray Rice with a 15 yard cussing flag on to boot. Totally changed the momentum of my day.
As for Reggie, the heisman thing is still in his head. There were two plays I saw where dude was looking totally cussing lost. He shouldah made them cats come TAKE it, instead of giving it back. I think it would have been better for his head.
The worst possible match-up for us is a team Payton thinks he can spread and throw on
His eyes get wide and he calls pass after pass because the match-ups are so tantalizing. Remember the 1st half against the vikings and their banged up secondary? I also think this is why we sometimes struggle against bad teams. I think he focuses so much on the match-up, he doesn’t try to stay balanced. This may sound crazy, but I think we’re better served going against a team that is perceived to be tough against the pass, or tough against both.
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010
amen to that
i almost went horse telling the TV to run the d*** ball. I can see why you want to pass more in that situation but you still have to run the ball. Brady dismantled the Bears in the cold/snow(didn’t see any snow in Baltimore though) by passing the ball and the Ravens pass defense is their weakest defensive point. Considering all that, i’m more POd about running 543895 screen plays that got blew up or went for 4 yards each time. Obviously the Ravens know how to react to screen plays and knew we’d use it. Instead of those screens, build an inside presence running the ball. How about some 2 TE and 1 FB sets on some running plays? Or not using so many draws? I think I saw 3 of them and that’s quite a bit considering we only had 14 rushing attempts. I put this game on the defense though. Ray Rice. How F****** hard is it to stop 1 guy!! And that TD pass he caught on Shanle….how’s he even get past him? You keep the guy in front of you and make the tackle, simple as that. Ugh, what a terrible game!!!!!
Superbowl bound!!!...I know! do you?! Go Saints!!
It's in the same place as all our advice for SP
Only in your dreams.
If our OL had played as well this whole YEAR as it did last year, it wouldn’t have mattered. The OL letting Drew get harassed all game was at least 60% of the problem. It was only 30-40% of the problem that we couldn’t run. But that AGAIN is on the OL, their blocking was a joke and run defenders were hitting our guys in the backfield all day long.
Whatever happened in this last offseason to destroy our OL so quickly? I have no idea. But they have GOT to find a way to fix it next year.
Pass protection is part of passing.
The OL letting Drew get harassed all game was at least 60% of the problem. It was only 30-40% of the problem that we couldn’t run.
Sounds like yet another reason to pass less often.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Re: #25 ... CUT THAT CHUMP.
If the OL could block for the run, yes. But they can’t do that either. At least not in this game, they couldn’t. Maybe they can next week if they are pissed off enough at how badly they were abused and embarrassed.
Look at the numbers one more time. Pass protection was 60% of the problem when we passed over 75% of the time. And can’t run is 35% of the problem when we ran less than 25% of the time. (Gotta leave a little bit of room for crappy officiating too.)
The numbers I assign are for a reason. The pass protection problems had a greater outcome on the game because we passed more. Had we done what you propose instead, the can’t run would have been 95+% of the problem.
Also, note the words. I said CAN’T run. Not didn’t. We tried less than ideal, but we SUCKED at it. It just had less direct outcome on the game because we did it so little.
When you SUCK at something, continuing to bash your head against the wall anyway while down by 2 scores is just stupid.
The problem wasn’t the playcalling. The problem was the OL. It STANK.
“The numbers I assign are for a reason. The pass protection problems had a greater outcome on the game because we passed more. Had we done what you propose instead, the can’t run would have been 95+% of the problem.”
And then when we DID pass, the pass protection would be less of a problem, because Baltimore wouldn’t be sending the house. Hence, Pierre’s 11 yard run on 2nd-and-12. Expecting the pass? Hit them with the run. What percentage of the problem was the OL on THAT play? I would estimate 0%, be it in pass protection OR run blocking. And that’s the entire point of a balanced attack. If both were static regardless on what was expected, then the percentages wouldn’t fluxuate as you’re suggesting. They’d remain a steadfast percentage based on the aspect of the offense being discussed.
“Also, note the words. I said CAN’T run. Not didn’t. We tried less than ideal, but we SUCKED at it. It just had less direct outcome on the game because we did it so little.”
BS. Pierre Thomas averaged 3.33 ypc. That’s enough to move the sticks on four downs. Julius Jones averaged 2.75 ypc. That’s enough to move the sticks on four downs. The only back that didn’t average 2.50+ is Reggie Bush. Payton could have easily just stopped calling his number. Instead, he abandoned the run almost entirely and lost the game in large part because of it.
“When you SUCK at something, continuing to bash your head against the wall anyway while down by 2 scores is just stupid.”
They weren’t down by any points whatsoever when they opened the game with seven straight passing plays. How many times had the RAvens stuffed the run up to that point? And you want to talk about stupid? How many minutes of the game were they down by two scores, anyway? The contest was within reach throughout. All they had to do was control the tempo on offense and they failed to do that because of Visor Boy’s urine-poor playcalling.
“The problem wasn’t the playcalling. The problem was the OL. It STANK.”
The OL played poorly against a team that knew what they had to do to win … blitz the hell out of Drew Brees. Ray Lewis talked about this on a video posted on this very site before the game was ever played. So, what does Payton do? Challenge the Ravens with an OL that isn’t up to the task of protecting Brees, as well as avoid serving up what they’re NOT expecting on more than 3 out of every 4 plays from scrimmage.
Oh yes, that just SCREAMS genius. Definitely outplayed, but more than anything else, outcoached.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Re: #25 ... CUT THAT CHUMP.
I love it when your own argument points prove how full of crap you are. Hey, it’s OK, we all do it, we all have our pet ideas that no matter how wrong we are we’ll never admit it. I have them too. (Just not here.)
You correctly noted that when the defense is “Expecting the pass? Hit them with the run.” But the exact reverse ALSO applies. If they know you are going to run, you’re going to get jack squat unless you try to pass instead.
3.33 YPC will get you a first down about 1/3rd to maybe 1/2 of the time if you try to run 3 straight plays. And if you REALLY think you’re going to go for it on 4th when you came up 2 yards short on a regular basis I want some of whatever you’re smoking. And then we can go to jail together for smoking illegal substances.
Also, note that of Pierre’s 20 yards, over half came on a single play. For his remaining 5 carries, he averaged 1.20 YPC. That won’t get you jack squat.
JuJo got 2.75 YPC, and that will get you a first down about 10% of the time if you run four straight plays. On three straight plays it will get you jack squat every time.
Should they have run more? Sure. Until you are running at least 30%, preferably 35% or so, you can always run more. Even at 40% it’s worth at least considering. But to pretend that JUST running more would have solved all our problems is just flat ludicrous. Because the OL didn’t open holes worth CRAP yesterday, and Emmitt Smith or Chris Johnson or even Adrian Peterson couldn’t have done jack squat with that.
Look I know you’re never going to let me convince you. But you’re still wrong. I’m not, however, going to waste any more breath trying to point this out to you. But we have to fix the OL. And we could use some better backs. But in order of most critical to least, the priority is as follows: Fix the OL, Fix the OL, Fix the OL, Fix the OL, Fix the OL, Fix the OL, Fix the OL, Fix the OL, Fix the OL, Fix the OL, better playcalling, better back.
Look. It's real simple. Rule number one in football is: stop the run.
We lost the game because we couldn’t stop the run. They ran for approximately 200 yards against us. We couldn’t get off the field on defense. We couldn’t keep them from scoring touchdowns. Everything else from unbalanced playcalling to time of possession to less effective passing and pass blocking is a direct result of not being able to stop their run game. We got our asses kicked on the trenches. They dictated the game to us. Their running was the cause. Everything else was the effect.
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Dec 21, 2010 3:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
You can’t run the ball without possession. Had our playcalling been more balanced, we would have held the ball longer, maintained drives and scored on a higher percentage of possessions. In between, their successful running becomes less of an issue. In fact, it likely diminishes as our defense would have been better rested. And yes, I know TOP wasn’t terribly lopsided. That’s my point. It should have been … in our favor. We needed that “freshness” edge, as their defense was the one made up of superior athletes. Our offense didn’t do anything to help attain that advantage.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Re: #25 ... CUT THAT CHUMP.
“Rule number one in football is: stop the run.”
Maybe in your rule book. My number one rule is control the clock. Stopping the run is only a part of that. Albeit a LARGE part, establishing the run yourself and MAINTAINING it is just as important.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Re: #25 ... CUT THAT CHUMP.
Not everyone is buying into your rule book either
As Dave suggested, and I have said before, the run/pass imbalance is a correlation not a causation of the outcome of the game. It’s just armchair QBing to say our pitiful run ratio/TOP was the cause. While I agree it is strongly correlated to winning and losing, it doesn’t fit as a cause based on the way this game temporally unfolded. The cause based on the orderly sequence of events of the game has to be the dominance of Baltimore’s offensive line and run game. Every other stat is a product of that fact.
“They can’t run without possession” I don’t believe we would have been able to maintain possession with the poor performance of our line, and would have given the ball back just as quickly, shooting your all powerful TOP straight to hell. Controlling the clock doesn’t mean anything if you don’t score. It means even less when the other team is controlling the clock and scoring like Baltimore was doing. They were able to dominate both lines of scrimmage. Our D couldn’t stop them from running and our offense couldn’t match them running. In turn, we were on our heels most of the game and got unbalanced in our playcalling. We didn’t lose the game because we passed too much. We passed too much because Baltimore successfully ran the ball down our throats starting with their second possession. Running for the hell of running when the other team is doing it much, much better is just a different recipe for getting beat in the score and time of possession. They still would have dominated the score and TOP. We were getting our asses kicked, so we fell back with what we do best against what they do worst: letting Drew pass the ball. It was our only hope, and we came up short.
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Dec 21, 2010 6:56 PM CST up reply actions
You can’t run the ball without possession
Last time I checked, each team got essentially the same number of possessions. What matters is making the most of your possessions while limiting what the opponent does with thiers. You are right about controlling the clock being important to winning. Where I disagree with you on the best way to do it.
The best way to control the clock is for your defense to get the other team off the field. The two fold benefit should be obvious: The opponent doesn’t score, and thier TOP is limited. Clearly this is preferable to just calling more run plays on offense, because although it may burn more clock, it doesn’t necesssarily improve chances of scoring (which is the ultimate goal). If you run off more time, yet don’t score, the time left in the game to score is less for the opponent, but it’s equally less for you as well. And you still have to score.
This TOP argument was perfectly supported by the Baltimore game. The ravens called run play after run play, controlled the clock and won the game. But they didn’t win just because they called runs. They won because we couldn’t stop them from calling successful runs and those run dominated drives kept ending in TDs. If our D could have shut down thier run, all the run calls in the world wouldn’t have mattered and actually would have just led to more 3 and outs.
In summary, I don’t expect to change C-Ps mind, and he won’t change mine. TOP is important, but I think the best way to control it is through good defense. On offense call the plays that give your team the best chance of scoring the most points and if you can additionally control the clock on offense, then bonus.
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Dec 22, 2010 7:29 AM CST up reply actions
Puuuulease!
“Sounds like yet another reason to pass less often.”
Sounds like yet another reason to to call better/faster/more efficient pass plays.
If you know your #1 weapon is getting harassed, do what you can to reduce that harassment… run or call better pass plays.
if the run isn’t working and you’re going to give up on it, then call better pass plays… use that HUGE playcalling sheet and find the “quick slants” section and the “short out” section, and the “quick hitch” section.
"You can't be king of the world, if you're a slave to the grind."
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