Saints Needs/Prospects and My Mock Draft
by Walter FTW on Feb 19, 2010 12:55 PM CST
75 comments
Hey y'all, I'm back. Sorry I couldn't post at length here during the season, but it was a busy semester. I made a blog, the aptly-titled Walter FTW, where I mostly write about sports. True to my calling, I made a mock draft for the first time yesterday, but I'll stop pimping the site. I've got my first-round pick for the Saints, along with some points on needs and prospects, after the jump.
Here's who I picked for the Saints:
32. New Orleans Saints: Sean Weatherspoon, OLB, Missouri
The Saints have weaknesses at every level of the defense, from a lackluster defensive line to a lack of depth in the secondary. The real problem, though, is in the outside linebackers: Scott Shanle may be the worst OLB in the league, and though Scott Fujita's blitzing played a big role in the Saints' championship, its success was an anomaly. Sean Weatherspoon is the best coverage linebacker in the draft, as well as an extraordinarily driven leader who will gel nicely with Jon Vilma. He adds speed and blitzing ability to New Orleans' perimeter, which in turn will allow much more creativity from Gregg Williams when designing coverage schemes.
Take a look at Pro Football Focus's ratings for our defense. I certainly think PFF has some flaws (just look at how highly Casillas is ranked, despite his play in the Tampa Bay game), but it's a pretty good tool for measuring relative merit for players. We've got serious problems on the defensive line (more on that later), but weakside linebacker is a huge position of need that we can still address by this point in the draft. Weatherspoon was one of the best players in the country last year, a veritable one-man defense, and reminds me of a young London Fletcher in terms of his aggression and tackling form. You could make the case for Navorro Bowman, the great Penn State linebacker, but I don't know that I trust him in man coverage, which Gregggggg will obviously be asking of him.
Other positions of need:
Defensive Line: The first thing that comes to mind. Sedrick Ellis is wildly inconsistent, Will Smith is abysmal against the run, and Remi Ayodele and Charles Grant are not starters in this league. Bobby McCray acquitted himself fairly well, but he's too inconsistent to be a starter. We've got serious depth issues here as well, and it would be awfully nice if we could get Aaron Kampman. All that said, why aren't we trying to go after defensive line prospects early and often? Because the truly great ones will be long gone by the time we get to them; in my draft, Suh, McCoy, Brian Price, Dan Williams, and Jared Odrick are all off the board by the time we pick. Who else can we look at, then?
DTs. Lamarr Houston, Texas; Geno Atkins, Georgia: Houston and Atkins are both monster pass rushers from the interior of the defensive line. Houston is certainly the more proven of the two (and is better against the run), but Atkins was unstoppable in the Senior Bowl. Atkins' problem, and what will probably keep him available to us in the third round, is that he's traditionally had a questionable work ethic and attitude problems, along with his injuries. There are question marks for Atkins, for sure, but he's got tremendous potential.
DEs. Corey Wootton, Northwestern; Greg Hardy, Ole Miss: Wootton is just a big ole monster, but projects to be a 3-4 end, and will be critical for keeping offensive linemen off of Jon Vilma and (hopefully) Sean Weatherspoon, who are comparatively tiny. Hardy, meanwhile, is very similar to Geno Atkins; he almost single-handedly beat Florida in the Tebow Promise game, and was one of the more singular talents in a singularly talented conference over the last three years. Hardy also has questions about his work ethic (and his injury history is extensive), but not unlike Julius Peppers, he's absolutely dominant when he's coached up.
Secondary: Our starting four, assuming we keep Sharper, is excellent. Reminiscent of the Eagles' corners, we've got the now-legendarily ambitious Tracy Porter (an Asante Samuel of sorts) and a lockdown veteran in Jabari Greer (Sheldon Brown), who's arguably the best cover man not named Darrelle Revis in the league. Also like the Eagles, we don't have anything in the way of corner depth. Randall Gay isn't serviceable as a nickel back, and Malcolm Jenkins is excellent as long as he doesn't have to cover beyond fifteen yards, after which he might as well just walk off the field. Jenkins, as we all assumed when we drafted him, is a free safety in this league; he's got to play in a zone.
Our safety situation, meanwhile, is pretty interesting. Roman Harper is still underrated for his contributions against the run, and he isn't the unbelievable black hole in coverage that he's made out to be, especially if he gets to play a short "robber" zone in the middle of the field. Darren Sharper's contributions, meanwhile, are highly overrated; he's beyond garbage against the run, and he really doesn't cover well in the traditional sense, he just plays center field magnificently well. They mesh well, but both could be improved with smart drafting. Our depth at safety is pretty terrible too, because while I have faith in Usama Young's coverage ability in a deep zone, we've got nobody proven besides him and Pierson Prioleau.
CBs. Brandon Ghee, Wake Forest; Dominique Franks, Oklahoma; Kareem Jackson, Alabama: Ghee probably won't fall to us after an extraordinary Senior Bowl, but he's got the versatility (and awesome man coverage) that Gregg looks for. Franks is an effective man-to-man guy as well, and a tremendous athlete to boot; he's also a good blitzer, if that counts for anything. Kareem Jackson is extremely likely, in my opinion, because he could even be around by our pick in the third round. He was a far better cover corner than his hyped teammate Javier Arenas, and he showed such tremendous growth from year to year (not to mention great versatility) that you've got to like his upside. I'd be wild about getting Kareem, who, had he stayed another year at Bama, would have ended up a first-round pick.
Safeties. Chad Jones, LSU; Morgan Burnett, Georgia Tech; Myron Rolle, Florida State: Jones was always a fan favorite for LSU, as well as an extremely competent free safety in a deep zone (not unlike Darren Sharper in that way). He's more physical than Sharper and faster than Harper, and would be a huge boon to our run defense. Burnett was a whirling dervish on a defense that seemingly consisted of two guys named Morgan, and his instincts and range make him very enticing. Rolle is also very intriguing, as I think whoever takes a chance on him will get a remarkable return on their investment. Rolle was supremely aware in zone coverage, and was just a magnificent tackler two years ago. Hopefully we can both get him and hope he stays committed to football.
Offensive Line: We have the best interior linemen in the entire league, and hopefully we can keep both Nicks and Evans for a long, long time. I'd go over prospects for offensive tackle (Jermon Bushrod is obviously not the answer at left tackle), but the vast majority of the prospects project at right tackle, and Stinchcomb had a surprisingly good year. The tackle class as a whole simply isn't great, especially when compared to the embarrassment of riches we've had the last few years.
There are other positions to cover (namely Sam LB and backup QB) but these are our major areas of need. Discuss.
This FanPost was written by a reader and member of Canal Street Chronicles. It does not necessarily reflect the views of CSC and its staff or editors.
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well done!!
Well thought out and put together… I don’t know if I 100% agree with an OLB @ 32 because I think a pass rushing DE will help our OLBs look better, but I can’t argue with your assessment and logically-based opinion.
Again, well done!
Colts fans are officially the worst sore losers and their home is Stampede Blue. Don't laugh Vikings fans... you're a close second!
If you are interested in participating in a live Mock Draft over at MtD after the combine hit me up. my email is in the post at the top that is posted by me (not the one in the recomended)
Draft Mocker/ Co-Leader of yearly 7 round live mock draft at MtD
by TheAngelsColts on Feb 20, 2010 10:04 PM CST up reply actions
interesting...
I’d say DE is a bigger need than LB, even before you factor in the 2 LB’s we’re gonna get coming off IR.
And, OL… NO. We are OK there. Spend a 6 or 7th rounder on one, but we’re in GREAT shape for next year… a pro-bowl LT coming back, and the best backup tackle in the league.
I’m not sure hwy people are so down on Bushrod. He gave up ONE sack to Dwight Freeney. And had had one bad game against the Cowgirls. He kept Jarred Allen (at fukll strength) in check in the NFCCG. What more could you ask for out of a backup who was thrust into a starting LT role?
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
That should have started out with… “I’d say DE/DT are the biggest needs.”
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
I think that's certainly a good point on the LB's we're getting back
but I would caution you about getting too comfortable out our left tackle situation. Sure, we won a Super Bowl with Bushrod at LT, and Pittsburgh won one with Max Starks — clearly the Blind Side thesis that you have to have an all-world LT in this league is flawed. But it’s certainly worth noting how much our protection schemes had to shift in order to accommodate Bushrod’s third-class blocking, not to mention his also-very-bad run blocking. He had two good games, but he was the biggest factor in taking the deep ball away from us towards the end of the year. Drew, for all his quick release, and the receivers, for all their speed, simply didn’t have time. It’s Bushrod keeping us from being a dominant offense.
Brown isn’t bad, certainly, but he belongs at right tackle. He didn’t give up a ton of sacks, but he allowed way too much pressure on a QB that doesn’t hold the ball long, to go along with crippling penalties. He’s one of those guys, like Marcus McNeil, who doesn’t deserve the rep he’s got, as both Football Outsiders and Pro Football Focus have noted.
reasonable suggestions, but.....
i’d be inclined to take your analysis a lot more seriously if you didn’t deal almost exclusively in hyperbole:
1. Shanle is below average, but there’s no way he is the worst starting OLB in the league. His several plays in coverage in the super bowl are enough to know that
2. Charles grant is absolutely a starting defensive end. he may be mediocre or not worth what we’re paying him, but he is starting caliber.
3. Instead of saying Jenkins should walk off the field after 15 yards, you could say football-type things such as “tries to jump routes, leaving him vulnerable to double-moves” or “he’s a rookie who showed flashes of good coverage against short routes but hasn’t caught up to the more sophisticated route combinations of the pro game”.
so i’m not just criticizing, here are my thoughts:
I’d love to upgrade the LB spots because I do agree that we’re getting by with mediocre-at-best players. But, I don’t think that’s the biggest weakness. Fujita and Shanle may be a little slow and subpar in coverage, but they are consistent and reliable. Besides, if we were able to get someone to go in the middle with Big Sed, the LBs play would improve just by not having guards blocking them
That said, I have a hard time saying don’t take Weatherspoon because I don’t see how we have a good, solid DT or DE available to us at 32.
Good piece, Walter, but tone it down. Mel Kiper already has the market cornered on hyperbolic scouting reports
Jenkins just doesn't jump...
routes, he gets completely turned around. Yes, he is a rookie, and in time may be a fine corner, but the big knock on him coming out was his speed, so I don’t see him as a shut down corner or one who can maintain an island like Greer.
Colts fans are officially the worst sore losers and their home is Stampede Blue. Don't laugh Vikings fans... you're a close second!
He's not a cornerback
…but he’ll make a helluva safety.
"My prediction for next year's SB: Saints vs. 2nd Place."
to start
1. Look at the bottom of this list. Now look at the bottom of this list. This is a subjective measure, but don’t you think there’s a pattern here? Shanle was really promising in the first few games, but totally fell apart afterwards.
2. Now look at the bottom of this list. Same deal; it essentially boils down to what everyone on CSC’s been saying, which is that Grant’s lackluster effort has led to an extremely poor pass rush from the defensive left. This is not to mention his also-very-poor effort in run support. Is he totally incapable of good play? Certainly not. Did he show that capability with any kind of regularity in 2009? No.
3. I can write football-type things, too. Jenkins tries to jump routes, but has to date had success on one of those jumps. Jenkins isn’t nearly fluid enough (not to mention his lack of long speed) to cover on deep routes. It’s not just a matter of getting fooled; he simply gets burned on go routes as easily as he gets caught flat-footed on posts and outs. He’s got to have the luxury of playing the ball, not his man, and the scheme he was drafted into doesn’t do that for him. Plus, he fancies himself as sort of a Ty Law, and gets way too grabby in a league that frowns on such things, leading to holding and DPI penalties.
Since I don’t think that Gregg will embrace zone full-time other than in end-of-the-game situations, I think Jenkins doesn’t have much of a future for us at corner. Like Usama Young (or Jason David, for that matter), he needs a space advantage on the receivers, and time to read the field. Playing at free safety would also incorporate his excellent tackling technique. Jenkins could be a Pro Bowl corner for someone like the Colts or Vikings in a few years; we need him to flourish at if we want to get a return on our investment.
I think we could certainly use help on the defensive line, but I think that we’re not going to have access to any of the really impressive tackle prospects, especially considering that most of the depth in this class is in 3-4 nose tackles. We play a fair amount of 3-4, but not enough that we can find a full-time place for a Terrence Cody or Cam Thomas.
I'm sorry, but
…what does any of that mean? Scott Shanle was a starting outside linebacker for a Super Bowl champion. He may be no better than mediocre, but he could not possibly have been the worst linebacker in the NFL. I don’t care what stats freaks think their numbers “prove”…this does not correspond with reality.
"My prediction for next year's SB: Saints vs. 2nd Place."
Shanle
He has been solid for the Saints. Not great but he has been very very solid. Stats even show it! I do agree that we need to go OLB in the draft Fujita aint getting any younger. I like Navarro Bowman or your guy from Mizzou.
by Saintsfan4life on Feb 19, 2010 11:23 PM CST up reply actions
I don't see it...
Shanle may not be spectacular but he was an important part of our D and made important plays in the Super Bowl. I’m not sure but don’t trust the great list makers who fail to take intangibles into account, we have a much greater need at DE and DT. LB play is affected by line play and too often the line play left our LBs in a lurch. Take care of the higher need, even getting a rookie “star” (because there are no sure things) at LB doesn’t help a lot putting a rookie behind an umimproved line that was a defense’s greatest problem.
The Saints have essentially sold out
to be a good pass defense, and that approach has obviously worked very well for us. Vilma’s the archetype here; some fantastic plays in the Super Bowl aside, he’s negligible in run support, but dominates in coverage. Shanle, on the other hand, is not only poor in run support (getting blocked out of plays by hardasses such as Dallas Clark) but also a sieve in coverage, allowing an All-Pro passer rating for those throwing at him. Shanle has experience with the system, and there’s obviously no stat for that, but I don’t know of any instance where his play (outside of the first two games) was at or above replacement level. It’s certainly worth seeing whether Arnoux or Casillas pans out, but I think that if Weatherspoon were to fall to us, we’d be fools to pass on him.
The only reason he falls to us, though, is if other teams with problems on defense load up on the early defensive line talent. I don’t think Jared Odrick (the ideal pick for the Saints’ line, realistically speaking) will fall to us, to say nothing of Brian Price or Everson Griffen. The line is the bigger problem for the Saints, but I just don’t think there will be much available to us.
"Negligible in run support"!?
Okay, you’ve officially lost me. No linebacker who was “negligible in run support” would even make an NFL practice squad.
"My prediction for next year's SB: Saints vs. 2nd Place."
I love Vilma.
I own his jersey. Outside of Brees and Evans, he’s probably my favorite player on the team. But it’s undeniable that he can’t fight his way off of blocks, and he misses a ton of tackles for a middle linebacker. It’s not his specialty by any stretch of the imagination.
you are nuts and wrong.
i have a hard time taking any of your analysis seriously with statements like that. vilma is a top 5 middle linebacker in the league and the most valuable asset on the saints defense last season. he was constantly diagnosing running plays and blowing them up in the backfield.
by in the 9th on Feb 20, 2010 4:16 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
2010 Draft
I see what you’re saying, but here’s my two cents:
1) Sean Witherspoon would be nice, but if Taylor Mays somehow falls to us, why not go for him? Sure he’s free safety, and a year ago he would have been projected as a Top 5 pick. But he stayed in school (his draft scenario is now like James Laurinaitis’s last year) and his stock dropped. He can also play OLB, and based on Shanle’s mostly poor coverage of Dallas Clark in the Super Bowl, Mays would be an interesting pickup. Why not?
2) Sedrick is fine. His absence was the reason our Rush D plummeted towards the middle end of the season. DT could be found by Round 3, or Round 6 (Wake Forest’s Boo Robinson might be a steal)
3) I’ll put money down that we draft a TE – maybe by Round 3. We’ll retain Shockey, but I’m unsure how Miller and Campbell are holding up, and David Thomas might be gone after free agency.
4) DE is just as high a priority as OLB. I don’t think Grant will be around soon (money/age concerns, mostly money), so taking a solid young DE by Round 2 would help a lot.
5) Loomis should just keep on drafting OL’s in Round 4. Let’s see… Evans, Bushrod, Nicks… see a pattern?
6) I say we get a QB by Round 7 or after the draft.
7) I’m interested to see Chip Vaughn and Stanley Arnoux and how they’ll perform by training camp.
well
1) I like Mays quite a bit as an outside linebacker prospect, but I wasn’t crazy about him at free safety during the last draft and I’m not crazy about him there now. If we could force him to play OLB, I think he’d be worth consideration at least.
2) Ellis is pretty good, but he’s still not exactly what we were looking for. He gets better penetration than PFF really notes, but he’s not much to write home about on the run, really, especially when it comes to designed traps. I think he needs help on the interior, for sure, I just don’t know if that’s where we need to focus our attention early in the draft.
3) I really, really hope we keep Thomas; it was his excellent contributions at h-back that made our protection schemes work, and he has some great hands. That said, Miami’s Jimmy Graham is a very interesting prospect.
4) Again, I totally agree about DEs, there’s just not a lot of talent there this year. If Everson Griffen falls to us (which I don’t imagine will happen after a good Combine) he’s probably the pick. Otherwise, we pick a guy like Wootton just to make the 3-4 work.
5) Yeah, fair enough.
6) Also fair.
7) And I’m interested, too, although not hugely optimistic considering how Aaron Curry, hype and all, has struggled.
Re: Mays
Has Mays ever played linebacker? He simply can’t cover, and he’ll be exposed right out of the gate as a free safety in the NFL. As a strong safety, he might be a good player in the box, a la Roman Harper…but we’ve already got a Roman Harper-type safety. And why take a flyer on a safety converted to a linebacker when you can draft…a linebacker?
"My prediction for next year's SB: Saints vs. 2nd Place."
Even a good player will struggle when surrounded by 10 other complete amateurs. Just because Aaron Curry has struggled doesn’t guarantee that Arnoux can’t turn out to be OK after all.
For those who can't remember the uncapped FA rules, this link's for you.
Re David Thomas...
He will be one of the first contracts signed this offseason… they will not even tender him… and dont forget they gave a seven rounder next year…. not a chance he walks this offseason
Bring the wood
from the way your making it sound........
we must be about as talented as Detroit……..
might have taken it more seriously if you cut the sarcasm and over exaggerations.
shanle is an average OLB, he makes his plays when he can, and rarely ever makes a major mistake. Smith isn’t bad against the run either….. just look at the Gibbs days….. all he did was stop the run! grant is lazy and inconsistent, but would start for other teams (most likely of the 34 variety)
weatherspoon was a fine linebacker at Missou, but don’t hype him up to be more than he was, a good coverage backer, and a decent open field tackler. he wasnt even one of the top 5 linebackers last year, and if he was a “one man defense”, then he was a poor one at that.
It is better to fail historical, than the live in mediocrity- Unknown
I think it speaks
to how well-positioned everyone is in Gregg Williams’ defense, not that the individual pieces can’t be upgraded. I think Shanle is well below average, especially in terms of range and coverage, and Smith is a pro at getting walled off from stretch plays.
Who would you rate over Weatherspoon, besides McClain? Brandon Spikes? Mizzou’s defense sucked, but I wouldn’t blame Weatherspoon.
I was all ready to jump into this post, then I read this line:
Scott Shanle may be the worst OLB in the league
That extreme over-exageration is simply not true. He is probably the most under-rated OLB in the league. Following the ‘08 season Jonathon Vilma said Scott Shanle was the most under-rated player on the roster. He praised Shanle’s hard work and stellar play, saying he was the most consistent linebacker that year. I was surprised when I read that, but I certainly will take Vilma’s word on this.
I’d prefer the Saints take a pass-rushing DE if one is available that is rated higher on the Saints board than Witherspoon. If Spoon is the highest rated player left on the board, take him.
"They're ready to be like 'Same Old Saints'" - Roman Harper, on each of the New Orleans Saints vanquished foes of 2009
Vilma is exactly
going to say, “Well, he can’t cover, and if he’s not put exactly where he needs to be on a run play, we’re pretty much boned,” can he? As for a pass-rushing DE, there probably won’t be a lot of options by the time we pick. Everson Griffen may be on the board, and if he is we’re taking him, I’m sure.
Vilma wasn't the only one who praised Shanle
So did Gregg Williams. And without prompting, either.
"My prediction for next year's SB: Saints vs. 2nd Place."
PFF
I think Walter’s getting his opinion on Shanle, Smith, and maybe some others mainly from PFF- which is an interesting site, but considering that it rates the Saints Defense overall as the SECOND WORST IN THE NFL, I think we can take it at the very least with a pinch of salt.
My opinion from watching/listening to every game for the past several years is that Shanle is a decent LB with below average athletic ability, Smith is a good to very good DE (against pass and run), Grant is a wildly inconsistent but quite talented DE (when not too fat), and the Saints defense this year was very good against the pass, below average against the run, and good to very good overall considering how poorly we made opposing QBs look, in general.
PFF
doesn’t rate schemes, and if it did we’d be in a class by ourselves. Williams does a magnificent job of positioning his personnel, and said himself that it’s liabilities across the front seven keeping us from being a truly dominant defense. Our talent just isn’t great, although I will admit that PFF punishes us in the ratings for having a lot of guys (like Vilma, Smith, and our starters in the secondary) who specialize in one aspect of the game to the exclusion of others. I will give it to Shanle that he doesn’t miss a lot of tackles, but he’s also a sieve in coverage (107 Passer Rating for QBs throwing at him) and has little to no range in run support.
It’s odd to think of rush defense of our weakest link after years of Fred Thomas and Jason David getting flambeed, but it’s a huge problem, and would be much improved by an influx of young talent like Weatherspoon on the perimeter. I think Smith is really quite overrated (although much of his difficulties come from not having anyone else on the line to distract attention from him, sure), not to mention inconsistent. I think that it’s a testament to the design of Williams’ blitzes and the competence of our secondary and Vilma that our coverage has been so tight with such inconsistent pressure from our front four.
"second worst"? Did that site really say that???
If so, those stats are garbage, and should never be referenced again.
(I was going to mention that the personal stats didn’t take turnovers into account… of which, I heard Shanle lead all LB’s in INT’s – not sure about FF. If you ignore turnovers, you’re missing a HUGELY IMPORTANT part of stats. That’s like ignoring INT’s thrown by a QB… maybe worse.)
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
The second worse 'D' in the NFL shut down the 2nd best "O" in the NFL !....
Did I miss something? We are the Champions and if we did it with the 2nd worse defense the how good are we? Or are the analyist’s just trying to say that the Colt"s and the rest of our opponents played poorly against the Saints? Damn how lucky we are to have had 16 games worth of the other team’s worst efforts. Karma I guess?
"Sometimes there's just not enough rocks". Forrest Gump
That’s getting into “statistically impossible” territory…
For those who can't remember the uncapped FA rules, this link's for you.
Oh, the humanity!
We Saints fans are cursed! After so many terrible years of football, now we have to deal with a bad draft position, too?!? Fardels!
In the immortal words of Socrates, "I drank what?"
Too much negativity for me.
Dude we just won the superbowl and only gave up 17 to the unstoppable peyton manning. Sure we could use some upgrades on defense and u point out what most other draft sites have been saying for at least a couple weeks now that we need olb and dt and de. But to say sharper is over rated and beyond garbage is crazy.
by cbkao on Feb 19, 2010 10:48 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Sharper
is great playing center field and reading the quarterback’s eyes, is below average in coverage because of lost speed, and is terrible in run support. His all-around game just isn’t that good, though his skill set is perfect for what Williams looks for in a free safety.
your analysis
is beyond garbage. it is great for hyperbolic over the top statements but is below average in coverage because it cites PFF statistics to back any point you try to make. the all-around content just isnt that good, though your skill set, i guess, is perfect for draft analysis.
by in the 9th on Feb 20, 2010 4:25 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
i can't agree with some of this
Smith and Ellis are good at what they’re suppose to be good at. They ask Ellis to shut down the run in the middle and he normally does that. They ask Smith to apply pressure on the QB from the outside and does that. I think we just need a DT and DE to play on the left side. Let the DTs be run stoppers and the ends be pass rushers. The LBs are an interesting group. While I don’t believe that Shanle has been the best guy, he’s been consistent and a lil above mediocre. I want to see what Arnoux has got. At safety, I’d like to see maybe a late pick that could be a steal or an early pick next year. Sharper won’t stay here forever. IDK how you say Sharper is garbage. You must be thinking about the SB run. Idk what he was doing there, i think it was just indecisiveness, but he’s been pretty decent against the run when he has been in the box but he hasn’t been there much. His coverage skills aren’t the best but he’s servicable when forced into action. I like him roaming the backfield because it takes away the deep ball that had plagued us for so long. I’m not willing to give up on Jenkins as a CB just yet. He’s got good size for it and played well in the nickel. Instead of making Mays a LB, maybe we could move Jenkins there. He could cover most TEs fairly well and is big enough to make the tackles. Anyways, I’d like to see him get more reps in the nickel slot. I think a DT/DE should be our first two picks then a LB, then a OL(center and tackle would be good for me), followed by another DE, then safety and QB in whichever way is best at the time.
Superbowl bound!!!...I know! do you?! Go Saints!!
Get Off Of Weatherspoon
Man, after reading this post, I suddenly feel dumber. I don’t believe in taking the word of PFF over what I have seen this year. You obviously have no knowledge of the Saints defensive concept or Gregg Williams’ schemes.
Shanle is more than adequate. He provides skill and heart to his position. I was in the same position last year with Shanle. I didn’t think too much of him, I didn’t think he was even supposed to be on the field, but then I watched him in Williams’ scheme. Shanle was pretty solid this year. He was not nearly as horrible as he is made out to be in this post. I think I saw a post above that said he didn’t cover Dallas Clark very well. Really? You really want to say someone doesn’t cover Clark very well? No one in the league covers Dallas Clark very well. That is why Clark is Manning’s favorite target. I think we should keep Shanle, and also hold off on trying to draft a LB. We drafted 2 LB’s last year, neither one of them has even showcased the ability that they are perceived to have, and we could use depth at corner and DE/DT worse than LB right now. Shanle needs one more year in this new aggressive scheme that is being run in New Orleans to be able to truely show his ability. I think he is being sold too short. I am not completely sold that he is the answer to everything, but until we properly evaluate the LB talent that we picked up in last year’s draft, I wouldn’t go after any this year.
Just to hammer home the point that we require greater depth at CB and DE/DT than LB, we had the chance to go after Derrick Brooks, we worked him out, looked at him pretty hard, and then we passed on him. He is one of the Most Prolific LB’s to ever play, and we let him walk. Sean Payton and Gregg Williams stuck by the LB’s that they had instead of going after one of the best LB’s to ever play. Why would we waste addition draft picks on LB’s that haven’t proven themselves in the NFL when we already have two on the shelf and passed on Brooks last season?
We were picking up CB’s that haven’t played in over a year because our DB situation was spread thin, extremely thin. We didn’t trust the guys from our practice squad enough to even give them a shot, we called Mike McKenzie, who had one great game left in him (New England), and Chris McAlister who basically filled a roster spot and occupied space on the field. Both were released as soon as we started getting healthy. Jenkins provided a little spark when he filled in, but you also have to keep in mind that he is a rookie. He made a few rookie mistakes, but he also made some great plays on defense and special teams. Look hard, I mean extremely hard, at Chad Jones from LSU. If he is still around at the end of the first round, I would snatch him up in a heartbeat. With the rumors that Reggie may be headed elsewhere, even though I don’t think he will, Jones could be of great use on punt returns while bringing him along to work in our secondary. Even if Bush sticks with us, he needs to be taken off of the punt returns. A lot of his knee problems come from returns. 2008 he injured his knee against Carolina, on a punt return, and it cost us half a season without him.
Defensive Line – Grant is finished, if he isn’t he should be. He has under produced for the last three years. He is not getting the push he needs in the pass rush and he is less than adequate in stopping the run. Prior to Ellis’ injury, we had a top 10 defense. Once Ellis went down, we faced Michael Turner (151 Yards), DeAngelo Williams (149 Yards), Steven Jackson (131) yards and finally got it together against a subpar Tampa Bay before Ellis returned. Anthony Hargrove added some support to the interior of the line, but he is better as a pass rusher than a run stopper. Bobby McCray, who had a knack for leveling QB’s in the playoffs doesn’t get as much of a push in the pass rush as Grant does, but is better at stopping the run off of the corner. I think that the Saints could push the line better with Hargrove on the outside and McCray in the interior, but that is just my opinion. We definitely need someone in the middle to compliment Ellis so he can live up to his potential much better than he has, and extra depth at DT is needed over more LB’s. When you get to Will Smith, be careful how you approach the situation. He did have 13 sacks this year. He is definitely the strongest part of out D-Line, and I do not believe that he needs to be replaced. Not only did he have sacks during the regular season, he also had an INT in the playoffs against Kurt Warner. I believe, had he had a better DT next to him, he could have had more sacks and better opportunities on the ball. Glen Dorsey might be on the trading block, and even though he hasn’t lived up to the hype he had coming out of LSU, he might be worth a look, especially if we can pick him up cheap. By now, he has enough experience that he can draw double teams that could allow Smith to excel even more than he did this past year.
When you get to the offense, steer away from a QB right now. Let Brunell walk, and start bringing along Chase Daniels. I think the kid will be fine. Brunell is not as adequate of a back up as we would all like to think. If nothing else, I hear that Bulger is on the chopping block in ST. Louis, and if so, he could probably be picked up relatively cheap as well. The RB Situation is no hopeless, but it is not as solid as it could be. Thomas does a wonderful job, Bell was adequate, yet inconsistent at times when on the big stage, Bush barely gets touches, and Hamilton became a solid goal line back when not hurt. This scheme needs work, and more than might initially be thought. I don’t mind a “committee” style rushing attack, and I completely understand the theory, but 4 HB’s is way too many. I honestly look for Bush to restructure, Thomas will be back, but I feel that Bell will be pushed out. Out of the blocks, he was a great back, but as the year went on, and the quality of opponents improved, his ability seemed to dwindle. Hamilton also might be looking in a different direction. At times he was solid, and at times he struggled to make the plays he needed.
If Bush sticks with the Saints, I look for him to be more productive in the passing game. I know we are deep at Wide receiver already, but don’t be surprised if Lance Moore is traded. I could almost hear hate mail being typed as I wrote that. I am not saying that it will happen; just don’t be surprised if it does. He spent a lot of time injured this year. When he was in the game, he produced, but as long as he was out, the Saints didn’t miss a beat. Meachem, Henderson, Colston, and Bush provided more than enough targets for Brees. Moore is a fan favorite, but I think the Saints can make it without him. I prefer for him to be there, but you never know.
If I was looking to keep a receiver that could possibly be released, such as Moore, I might release a TE instead. Keep Shockey, keep Thomas, but Dinkins can go. He didn’t produce a great deal anyway. Streif is kept as a back-up tackle/TE, so he can be used in his versatility on the line. Thomas is used as a full back at times and his versatility came in quite handy when Evans went down. I think we can get rid of Eckle and keep Evans. If worse comes to worse, we can use Thomas in the FB role again.
When you start thinking O-Line, you start looking for weak spots. With Brown being injured this year, Bushrod stepped up. I don’t believe we could have had a better back up play a full season than what Bushrod did. Brown will be back, and Bushrod should be kept on just in case. As for the rest of the line, I don’t see many changes needed. I wouldn’t go after an O-Lineman in the draft this year. We can wait for a better class of O-Lineman to develop in college for next year’s draft.
The truth is, the draft comes after free agency, and that is definitely a plus. Free agency might allow us to address crucial spots that need immediate attention, rather than drafting an unproven kid and expecting them to be the next Richard Dent, Rickey Jackson, Ronnie Lott, Jerry Rice or Walter Payton. We have pressing needs that need to be addressed, and we have future needs that will need fresh young talent that is properly developed. The Saints biggest Key Players we pretty much unwanted talent that happened to combine together and form a championship team. Brees, P. Thomas, Shockey, Colston, Shanle, Fujita, Sharper, Greer – these guys were either undrafted, released buy other teams because they weren’t good enough, or taken so far down in the draft that it was considered an expendable pick anyway. Don’t forget, these “misfits” are our Super Bowl Champions, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
Underestimate No One, Take Nothing For Granted
by SaintsFanInIraq on Feb 20, 2010 2:19 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
and the winner for longest comment ever on CSC goes to......
BOOM! rec’d it.
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
If this is going to be a debate about heart
then I’ll stop right here. Shanle could not only not cover Dallas Clark (admittedly a tough cover, although imagine if we had a young, fast outside linebacker who could deal with such things), he also got destroyed by Clark’s blocking, which shouldn’t happen to any self-respecting linebacker. We didn’t get Derrick Brooks because it’s not 2003 anymore. Jones is, as I noted in my post, a promising prospect and one of my favorite players at LSU. The defensive line is bad, but we don’t have the draft position to upgrade it with one of the big names (hopefully hitting on talent later on). I didn’t call them misfits, I kind of like these guys too.
Misfits
Is what I refer to most of the Saints as due to being unwanted or not fitting in well with their former scheme. I wasn’t trying to quote you, but there are several players that weren’t wanted by other teams and have become labled as misfits. Sorry if you misinterpretted the quotation marks.
As far as the LB’s I mentioned, I screwed that one up. You are right, we only picked up one LB in the draft last year, my mistake, but we had opportunities to pick up other linebackers during the course of the year and chose not to. Brooks, specifically, would have made an immediate impact on the LB play, but I have to trust that Loomis, Payton, and Williams saw something in Shanle that you apparently don’t. I was not a huge Shanle fan last year, but he has done pretty well this year and made a few key plays. His awareness and ability are greater than determined by just the stats he has. I still say give Shanle one more year under Williams and you will see a more remarkable LB. Don’t forget that with Williams, our entire defense sacrificed a lot of yardage to come up with game changing plays. Shanle was one of the components that led to INT’s, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, great field position, and a general disturbance in opposing offenses’ game plans. He did what he needed to get the job done. His blocking needs work, you can teach that, his cover needs minor adjustment, you can teach that, but you can not teach heart, determination, dedication and ability, which he definitely has. The biggest problem I saw out of Shanle all year long was when he tried to pick up a fumble and run with it in the NFCCG. I was screaming at the TV for him to fall on it, but he couldn’t hear me I guess.
Underestimate No One, Take Nothing For Granted
by SaintsFanInIraq on Feb 21, 2010 4:55 AM CST up reply actions
LOL I think we all were.
Tou would think all those voices would have made an impression. Course some were further away than others.
My Voice
Was about 7000 miles away, so I am pretty sure he didn’t hear me, even though my parents seem to think they did. Just in case you were wondering, I work as a contractor in Iraq.
Underestimate No One, Take Nothing For Granted
by SaintsFanInIraq on Feb 22, 2010 4:15 AM CST up reply actions
Good analysis
Also… next year punt returner may be already in the building (Rod Harper)
Bring the wood
Not that what I say matters, but...
…as far as our secondary goes, I am on the record as saying that I think we have one of the best, if not the best, secondaries in the league. The fact that the opposing QB gets 10+ seconds in the pocket to find an open receiver isn’t our secondaries’ fault. It’s obviously because our best pass rusher is constantly double teamed because we have no one coming from the left side, where Charles Grant/Bobby McCray are supposed to be. I would be completely content without taking a corner or safety in the draft. If the best player on the board is one of these positions, then fine, take him. I just don’t think it’s a necessity. We need LB depth. I love Dunbar and Mitchell, but I think they are destined to live the life of a 2nd stringer/special teamer. I don’t necessarily want someone to replace Shanle or Fujita, I just want a young player to come in to learn from them and compete for their job. Same goes for DE. I think Bobby McCray did a much better job than Grant did in the limited amount of games that he played in.
Just for the record, I’m sure we wouldn’t have had all those hits on Favre in the NFCCG if Grant was playing. Just saying
As far as our DT’s go, I’m extremely happy with Ellis’ play. I think Hargrove and Ayodele played outstanding. I wouldn’t mind giving DeMario Pressley a shot at starting. I was happy with his play when he actually got PT.
Our draft should go like this:
Rd. 1 – LB
Rd. 2 – DE
Rd. 3 – best defensive player on the board
Rd. 4 – OT
Rd. 5 – TE?
Rd. 6 – best player on the board
"I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you." - Darren Sharper to Tracy Porter after his 74 yard interception return for a touchdown in Super Bowl XLIV.
Wait a Minute
Man, we already have 2 LB’s sitting on the shelf that haven’t even stepped onto a field because of injury. I wouldn’t draft another LB just yet, especially in the first rd. DE/DT/DB is a bigger concern than LB’s for the first round. We need another cover corner, and we won’t find him in the draft. We will have to find him through free agency. I feel that an LB in the first round is about as productive as trading the whole draft for Rickey Williams. It is something that will work out fine for another team, but we will end up shooting ourselves in the foot in the long run.
Underestimate No One, Take Nothing For Granted
by SaintsFanInIraq on Feb 20, 2010 3:18 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
that a good saying
if your in the late 1 rd you dont get a LB unless you need one and the saints have 5 lb not a need if ask me
by 14fizzpatrick on Feb 20, 2010 7:29 AM CST up reply actions
Which two LB’s are you talking about? I know Stanley Arnoux is a LB, but Chip Vaughn is a safety.
"I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you." - Darren Sharper to Tracy Porter after his 74 yard interception return for a touchdown in Super Bowl XLIV.
by jeremy_smith on Feb 20, 2010 1:14 PM CST up reply actions
Glad you're back, Walt.
I think you’re a little too harsh on several of our players. They got us to and through the Super Bowl, so they must be doing something alright. But I agree with the weaknesses you laid out, and I agree with your draft order. I don’t know about the players, but Weatherspoon seems like a good pick at our spot, and I don’t think you can hope to get a guaranteed-great D- or O-lineman at number 32. The best available linebacker would probably be the surest talent we can draft at a position of need that late in the draft. That said, I think D-lineman is the most glaring weakness on the team. None of our starters instill a great deal of confidence in me. That unit is like the mirror image of our O-line: all high-round draft picks who are badly underperforming. I would like to keep Ellis and Smith as starters, and replace the other two with as much talent as we can find, but I don’t think that wellspring of talent will be in this year’s draft. We may find a big body DT that is athletic and motivated enough in a late round, but I think the LDE position will have to be addressed in free agency. We’d probably be better off if both were. Of course, it’s likely that free agency won’t be kind to the Saints this year, so who knows how much can realistically be improved. For that reason, I think Brown gets whatever he wants to stay another year or two.
"The Colts were punching at it and grabbing for it, trying to get it out. But I didn't care if they broke all my fingers. There was absolutely no way in the world I was going to let go of that ball. That was our ball.''-Chris Reis
I completely agree with you
and again, I don’t think you can understate the importance of Gregg Williams’ gameplan to this defense in terms of making more with less, Jerry Glanville style.
Hmm just realized I hadn’t actually commented. I think the basic draft was pretty good.
The hyperbole about the LBs was way over the top. He isn’t remotely close to “elite” but he neither is he remotely as bad as you make him out to be.
And as others have mentioned before, we need DL far more than we need to replace the LBs. Our greatest need is another good DT. If Ayodelle comes back healthy, even better, but we need another guy in there who can gets some push and stop the run. Put Hargrove back at his “natural” position of DE, get us a real DT in there who can help Ellis out. If need be we should even trade up in the round to get one.
For those who can't remember the uncapped FA rules, this link's for you.
Trading up to get one
…like Suh?
Yeah, I know, it’s a pipe dream…but the Rams have so many needs that adding a single high-priced rookie to their squad gets them nowhere, even if he turns into a perennial All-Pro. If we swapped first rounders, and gave them our second and third, they get a couple extra picks (which they could trade for more picks, if they chose) and avoid a huge payout, and we get the tackle we want.
I can’t recall another first-round trade quite this radical, but that doesn’t mean it can’t happen. And just think of Suh (or McCoy) playing next to Ellis!
Like I said…a pipe dream…but now that we’ve won the Super Bowl, there’s little left to fantasize about…
"My prediction for next year's SB: Saints vs. 2nd Place."
other than shoring up our D so we can win the next 5 super bowls, eh? That's my fantasy
We can be the first team in NFL history to win at least 13 games 6 years in a row with 6 super bowl titles. Because I STILL don’t mind making history…
"In the end, the bread was in the pudding." Bobby McCray
Shoot I’d be delighted in just being the first team ever to three-peat.
For those who can't remember the uncapped FA rules, this link's for you.
Suh in Black & Gold?!?!?!
…I think I just wet myself a bit…
Yeah, that would indeed be a dream come true! ;-)
(…and worth trading away that many picks, if it were at all possible, which it almost certainly isn’t…sigh…)
As for LB’s, I dunno, Fujita and Shanle did their jobs respectably, and we have a few guys that are either coming off IR (Arnoux) or still developing (Casillas) that we really need to look at, so giving up that potential for Witherspoon at 32 to get a stud interior DL guy is a good move in my opinion.
We REALLY need to address depth in the secondary…our starters are lights-out, but when they are off the field the talent level drops precipitously. We don’t need shut-down guys, we just need guys that won’t get burned or force us to sign bodies off the street because the guys on the roster can’t carry their own water.
Irony: An atheist Saints fan.
by GSO Saints Fan on Feb 20, 2010 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
Pipe dream indeed. But I’d love it if we could figure out a way to pull it off.
We’d probably have to throw in a player or two as well. Hopefully ones that would be helpful to them without being crippling to us. Grant would probably actually help them as a 3-4 end, but they probably wouldn’t want him. Maybe we could spare a WR… we got by with only three this year, and I’m sure we’d find a replacement eventually… or maybe even quickly if Arrington panned out…
For those who can't remember the uncapped FA rules, this link's for you.
I think the Bucs may have figured it out...
I just heard a trade/draft rumor…
RUMOR (from the TB paper): The Bucs are in discussions with the Rams to trade their first round pic (#3), their third round pick, and QB Josh Johnson to the Rams for the #1 pick in order to draft Suh.
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
Yeah I’ve heard both that they are and that they aren’t. This time of year, 90% of the rumors are somebody deliberately blowing smoke hoping to mislead the other 31 teams about something. The other 10% are just pure baloney.
For those who can't remember the uncapped FA rules, this link's for you.
lol...
i do think it would be a good move on the Bucs part if they did it.
I don’t think it would be that great for the Rams, unless they planned on taking a QB… then they could wait until 3 to get their man, at a lower price, and have an extra pic in the third.
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
Thoughts on the draft, Jan. 2nd, 2009
“By the way, I’ll just state for the record that I don’t think the Saints need another linebacker, certainly not with our first pick, like WalterFootball does. Vilma’s great, Fujita can cover and plays the run well (he can’t blitz, but oh well), and Shanle’s underrated.”
Guess who wrote that?
"My prediction for next year's SB: Saints vs. 2nd Place."
I changed my mind.
I was wrong on Rashad Johnson in that post, and Alphonso Smith and Mike Mickens, for that matter. Getting Cushing or Matthews from USC would have been huge, although it’s a lot easier to say that in retrospect, now that we know that Cushing is fast enough/not roided out and that Matthews is tough enough. If Jenkins doesn’t pan out at safety, we’ll be kicking ourselves for a long time for passing on two All-Pro guys at a position of need. I thought Shanle was underrated last year because of the negative press he got from FO, and when I watched him closely this year I slowly found myself inclined to agree with them.
So last year, after going 8-8, our defense clearly the team’s weak link, you were high on our linebackers and called Shanle underrated. This year, suddenly Shanle is the worst linebacker in the NFL and Vilma is of “negligible value” against the run. And all they did was to win the friggin Super Bowl. Yeah, whatever.
"My prediction for next year's SB: Saints vs. 2nd Place."
Whether you changed your mind or just had a brain fart, when you contradict yourself that dramatically your credibility goes out the airlock.
For those who can't remember the uncapped FA rules, this link's for you.
Look at Youuuuuuuuuuuuuu
research and memory is key. Great effort, and good job. Just replace C. Grant. I think he knows he’s gone.
You think you know, and you don't know, and you never, ever will.-Jim Mora Sr.
PFF (again)
This has been stated before, but if PFF is relied upon by ANYONE to evaluate ANYTHING with competence, this should be reiterated- Pro Football Focus RATES THE SAINTS AS HAVING THE 2ND WORST DEFENSE IN THE NFL!!!!!
If they’re strictly rating talent, than it’s crap.
If they’re strictly rating stats, than it’s still crap (see opposing QB rating vs Saints Defense, turnover ratio, other stats).
If they’re strictly rating game performance, than it’s a HUUUGE pile of crap.
by iiAndyiiii on Feb 20, 2010 2:44 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Perspective!
Too many comments to read, but I get the idea. Look guys, I for one salute somebody willing to throw this out there. I look at this as a rough draft, and we gain knowledge from multiple points of view. Just don’t crucify the author cause you don’t agree, hell I thought I had a good understanding of things, and I’ve already learned a lot more from these debates. This kind of insight, is exactly what I’ve been searching for. Thanks Walter for getting the ball rolling on this issue.
Suck da head, and pinch da tail
by SaintJenkins on Feb 20, 2010 3:18 PM CST reply actions
versatile players
like mays and jones would be a good fit especially with gregg williams. they could line up in different packages and varying positions, either for coverage or blitzing. i believe i read a quote from him that was one thing he is looking for. or i made that up. i also think we just need to draft some CB’s in the earlier rounds. we were thin last year and injuries exposed that. porter and greer are the real deal, but taking a couple low profile guys and letting them learn under our starters would be pretty beneficial to long term success.
the really awesome thing about this draft is that i dont think there is really a wrong answer. as of now, we dont have a need so great that we can pick the best available player and not go wrong. or we can watch how the first round unfolds and trade out if we dont see value for the pick. short of trading all the picks away for ricky williams, i dont see how the saints can really bomb this draft.
Smart Guys
SAINTS ORGANIZATION—read these posts and responses. I just hope that someone in the organization takes the time to read these posts and responses and surf out what they need. All of you are smart. That’s what great fans are about.
Just admit it...
You hate Shanle because your wife/gf saw the video and you caught her drooling over it LOL
by Saintsfan75 on Feb 21, 2010 4:57 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
that was pretty funny
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by Dave Cariello on Feb 22, 2010 1:19 AM CST up reply actions
Have you guys
Heard about this guy?? He is from a division II team and here is a link to a story about him
http://collegefootball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1053376
what do you guys think, is he a beast or what????
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