A Defense of Scott Shanle
by MtnExile on Feb 21, 2010 11:57 AM CST
85 comments
In a recent thread, linebacker Scott Shanle came in for some particularly virulent criticism, which I believe to be unjustified. I intend to make the case that it is unjustified; but in doing so, I don't want it to seem that I'm simply piling on WalterFTW, the writer of the original post. His opinion is not too far different from that of a lot of other fans, Saints fans included. This is meant to be an answer to all of them.
At the same time, I'm going to concentrate on what WalterFTW wrote; since putting the argument in my own words may mischaracterize the opinion of my opponents, I'll use their own words...and WalterFTW's are not only the most recent, but the fullest expression I've come across.
First, for the record: I believe that Scott Shanle is a solid linebacker. He simply does his job, without fanfare or gaudy spectacle, so it's easy to forget he's there. Is it possible to upgrade the position? Sure...the only way an upgrade would be impossible is if Shanle were the greatest linebacker in the NFL, which he isn't. We could do better. But do we have more pressing needs than to replace a player who performs well with another who performs marginally better? You bet.
Now that you know my biased opinion, on to the meat of the subject. In his assessment of Shanle, WalterFTW made heavy use of the analysis at Pro Football Focus, which lists Scott Shanle as the worst outside linebacker in the NFL. Regarding his play, WalterFTW specifically had this to say:
"Shanle could not only not cover Dallas Clark (admittedly a tough cover, although imagine if we had a young, fast outside linebacker who could deal with such things), he also got destroyed by Clark’s blocking, which shouldn’t happen to any self-respecting linebacker."
This is representative of the sort of criticism that is routinely directed against Shanle; and it struck me as being not only hyperbolic, but also unfair. Fortunately, I had the means at hand—a tape of the Super Bowl—to check for myself. So I watched every play, noting the formations, Shanle's position (and likely assignment), and how the play actually worked out. The most surprising thing was this: Shanle spent the majority of the game not at weakside linebacker—his usual position—but at strongside linebacker. He didn't simply cover Dallas Clark occasionally: he covered him most of the time.
So did Clark "destroy: him? On every running play in which Clark blocked Shanle, the Saints were playing a formation with 3 down linemen, which meant Shanle was playing strongside outside linebacker. Under those circumstances, he had two main responsibilities:
1) Provide outside containment; and 2) Cover the tight end.
On several occasions, Clark chip-blocked before releasing downfield. There is no way to tell a chip block from a running play except to wait and watch, which was precisely what Shanle did. On no occasion was he "destroyed" by Clark: he held his ground, making sure first that nothing got around him to the outside, and second that Clark was not able to get a release downfield. In other words, he did his job. An example: on Addai's touchdown in the third quarter, Clark blocked Shanle to the outside, but Shanle stood him up and actually forced the play back to the inside: Addai cut back sharply, and it was missed tackles by Greer and Gay that paved the way to the end zone—not any failure by Shanle.
Let's face it: football is a team sport. You do your job, and rely on others to do theirs. Anyone who tells you that an outside linebacker's primary responsibility is to toss aside the blocker like a rag doll and make the tackle single-handedly is probably coaching pee-wee. What's more, Clark is not only bigger than Shanle—he's also a professional, highly trained and motivated. You have to expect that he'll win at least a few of the one-on-one battles. Getting successfully blocked by a tight end is hardly the humiliating occasion for a linebacker that WalterFTW makes it out to be.
Now, on to Shanle's pass coverage. Clark's numbers in the Super Bowl were slightly higher than average: 7 catches for 86 yards, while his seasonal average was 6 catches for 69 yards. But those numbers didn't come against Shanle alone. Clark caught only three passes against Shanle. The first came on the Colts' first play of the game, a slant pattern for 18 yards on which Clark had beaten Shanle badly. That was the only pass Clark caught against Shanle in the first half.
Clark also caught Manning's first pass of the second half, on a crossing route for 7 yards. Several plays later, Shanle was beaten again, though not badly: Clark made a catch on one of the most magnificent passes I've ever seen, with Manning rolling out and laying a perfect throw over the coverage and right into Clark's motionless and waiting hands, for 27 yards. It was more a success on the part of Manning than Shanle's failure.
And that's it. Clark's other catches came when Shanle had other assignments, either blitzing, covering Addai in the flat, or playing deep zone during the Colts' last, desperate drive. (In fact, Clark had two of his catches, for 16 yards, while facing the Saints' prevent defense). For limiting Clark as well as he did for most of the game, you could make the argument that, far from being a liability, Scott Shanle was the biggest unsung hero of the Super Bowl.
* * * * *
Now: an addendum concerning Pro Football Focus, and stat analysis sites in general.
Whenever you come across a site such as this, telling you what you ought to believe about a particular player or team, the first thing you should ask is, "How did you come to that conclusion?" In other words: what analytical technique was used to convert raw stats into a defensible argument?
On PFF, the analysis is perfectly opaque. There is no explanation of how they came to their conclusions. On the home page, they have this to say:
"Because we grade every game using exactly the same methodology we can make available rankings for EVERY position."
...but they never explain what that methodology actually is. Is it flipping a coin? Reading chicken entrails? Or is it—most likely of all—simply an opinion? If you check out their How Do We Grade section, you find this rather unilluminating explanation:
"The grading takes into account many things and effectively brings "intelligence" to raw statistics. For example a raw stat might tell you a Tackle conceded a sack. However, how long did he protect the QB for before he gave it up? Additionally when did he give it up? If it was within the last two minutes on a potentially game tying drive it may be rather more important than when his team is running out the clock in a 30 point blow out.
"The average grade or what we would typically expect of the average player is therefore defined as zero. In reality, the vast majority of grades on each individual play are zero and what we are grading are the exceptions to this. Rating a LT as anything other than zero for a successfully completed backside seal block on a DRE is going to a level of complexity beyond the scope of this site."
Again: this is no explanation at all. We still don't know precisely how a grader assigns a numerical score for a play. Without knowing that, we cannot know how much confidence to repose in the conclusions.
Then there's this:
"If you're not 80% sure what's gone on then don't grade the play. The grades should stand up to scrutiny and criticism. It's far better to say you're not sure than be wrong. However, this is not an excuse for chickening out on making a judgment. What we definitely DO NOT do is raise or lower the grading because we're not sure. Giving -0.5 rather than -1 or -1.5 because you can't be certain what went on is wrong. The correct score is 0."
This entirely gives the game away. The correct score isn't zero; the correct score is unknown. No score at all should be given if you're unsure, because an unwarranted zero will artificially deflate the score of a good player and artificially inflate the score of a bad one. Give Scott Shanle enough zeros, and it lifts him from the abyss of the linebacker charts into the middle of the pack.
The problem occurs whenever anyone attempts to take a set of numerical data and tell you what it means by applying to it a mathematical formula based on subjectve weighting. Argue all you want that an interception on a Hail Mary pass at the end of a half isn't equivalent to a game-turning interception in the fourth quarter; you're right, but how do you weight each one? In the end, the numerical score you give them will be subjective. Mathematics has the reputation of being purely objective and impartial; but when numbers are misused, the resulting garbage doesn't stink less for being made up of numbers. Expressing opinions in numbers doesn't somehow convert them to objective facts.
In a nutshell, these sites are produced by people whose understanding of statistics far outweighs their knowledge of football. And even their understanding of statistics is deficient, because they don't seem to understand its limitations. Numbers don't really explain everything; and subjectively-applied numbers don't explain anything at all.
This FanPost was written by a reader and member of Canal Street Chronicles. It does not necessarily reflect the views of CSC and its staff or editors.
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I too, will rec this.
Very well written. Scott Shanle deserves a little love. He’s a blue collar, lunchpail guy with a great attitude and heart. If anyone thinks our defense would be better without him they’re wrong.
Snap, place, kick! And it's good! It's good! It's goo-hoo-hood! Pigs have flown! Hell Has frozen over! The Saints are going to the Superbowl!
by Joseph William Stern on Feb 21, 2010 12:32 PM CST reply actions
I agree; BOOM!
Oh Man, I want to be in that number; when the SAINTS go marching in. (To Miami) WHODAT
4 Booms
…I think Lunchpail is an asset, not a liability. I don’t care what the stat hounds say.
Can we do better? Sure! Heck, the Ravens can probably improve over Ray Lewis too…so?
The important issue is how the TEAM fits and works together, not the individual skill of each player, the whole is greater that the sum of the individual parts.
Irony: An atheist Saints fan.
by GSO Saints Fan on Feb 21, 2010 12:39 PM CST reply actions
Totally agree
Scott Shanle spent most of the super bowl in Dallas Clarks hip pocket. His coverage was as good as any. Peyton Manning just made perfect passes to Clark. Theres no defense against that.
It's a shame we have to defend someone who gave his heart and soul to the team.
Snap, place, kick! And it's good! It's good! It's goo-hoo-hood! Pigs have flown! Hell Has frozen over! The Saints are going to the Superbowl!
by Joseph William Stern on Feb 21, 2010 1:02 PM CST reply actions
good writeup. you get a rec from me
Shanle was all over Clark on quite a few plays. The play where Manning rolled out and hit Clark had 5 guys all around Clark and Manning hits him. Clark’s arguably the best pass catching TE in the game right now. We can always upgrade. The problem right now is exactly how pressing of a need is it. I thing DT and DE are our two biggest weaknesses right now and without getting those addressed first, whoever replaces Shanle won’t get far better results. Shanle is a mediocre LB imo while Fujita has always seemed above average. Also, who’s to say that our upgrade isn’t already here in the form of Arnoux or possibly someone else(although i find this unlikely outside of Arnoux). We have much more pressing needs imo to be complaining about our LB core. I think we need to find some young players that can take over positions in a year or two after the DT/DE spot is locked up. Like a center and RT, maybe even a FS because Sharper, as good as he was, isn’t getting any younger. I’ve also though about the possibility of moving Grant to DT alongside Ellis and wondering how that would work. Shanle is a good consistent player who doesn’t make huge plays usually but doesn’t give them up very often either.
Superbowl bound!!!...I know! do you?! Go Saints!!
One thought about "need" is...
7 games next year are going to be against VERY good/premier TE’s…
I think our TEAM did a great job this year, but I would like to see an upgrade in TE coverage, if that means we need a new OLB, so be it.
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
I'm calling BS
First, for the record: I believe that Scott Shanle is a solid linebacker.
M-E, you know I love you like a Southern cousin, but it’s ALL for the record.
Funny what ultimate success, a Super Bowl victory, will do. “A rising tide lifts all boats”, that sort of thing.
I submit, from the record:
2. Cut Fujita and Shanle. This would save $7.2 million, minus cap hit. And honestly, the linebacker corps needs to be reworked drastically.
by MtnExile on Jan 19, 2009 8:45 AM CST
Maybe Brian Cushing, or Gerald McRath to push Shanle.MtnExile on Jan 14, 2009 12:53 PM CST
We need to see if he [Dunbar] can compete for Shanle’s spot on the weak side,by MtnExile on Jan 9, 2009 1:52 PM CST
This defenseby MtnExile on Dec 28, 2008 1:52 PM CST
needs to be torn down and completely rebuilt.
Let’s see: who has to go? Smith, Shanle, Gay, David, Harper, Bullocks…who else?by MtnExile on Dec 28, 2008 2:08 PM CST
.
M-E, I cheered with Shanle defenders, I know Shanle defenders, Shanle defenders are acquaintances of mine. Senator, you’re no Shanle defender. And if you are, you sure change your mind a lot. Now which mind of yours are we to believe?
Jesus1000 is a concept by which we measure our pain.
by stujo4 on Feb 21, 2010 2:30 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
In defense of M-E...
All of those comments were from LONG before GW came to town and we knew what those players could do in a good system with good corners to defend the outside and good safeties to patrol the deep zones.
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
Good lord, Stuart? This is love? Did you at least wear a condom when you wrote that?
First of all—and for the record—you should work for the DNC. Let’s see what I actually wrote:
Well, that doesn’t work…only $2.6 million saved. That means there’s only two other possibilities that I see, both of them unpalatable. But the first is unpalatable because it smacks of treason, and the second only because it’s extremely risky.
1. Cut Deuce McAllister. See, I told you it smacks of treason. We’d save $7.3 million, minus the cap hit; we’d lose…our soul. Can’t wait to find out how management sees this.
2. Cut Fujita and Shanle. This would save $7.2 million, minus cap hit. And honestly, the linebacker corps needs to be reworked drastically. But losing both of them means we’d just have to use the savings to bring in new linebackers; would they be any better? Another possibility is to restructure their deals, but the only way that works is if they truly believe that if they don’t restructure, they’ll be cut. I’m sure they fully understand the risk the team would be taking in doing so.
[emphasis added]
Gosh, you forgot to provide some context there. Cutting Shanle wasn’t something I wanted to see done. Similarly…
Dunbar is a guided missile on special teams. If he can play that way on defense, he could be a star. He had a terrible 40 time in the combine, as bad as Ali Highsmith, but he sure seems to play faster than that on the field. We need to see if he can compete for Shanle’s spot on the weak side, which is the only place I think he’s suited to.
First of all: calling for competition for a spot isn’t the same thing as handing that spot to someone else. More importantly, this was written in response to a solicitation for opinions on several players, including Dunbar. I wrote specifically that weakside linebacker was the only suitable spot for Dunbar…so competing against whoever holds that position is only logical, and doesn’t imply anything at all regarding Shanle.
Maybe Brian Cushing, or Gerald McRath to push Shanle.
Again: calling for competition isn’t a bad thing. I did NOT say, “to push Shanle out.” Not a bad idea, actually, getting Brian Cushing…but I should have said Clay Matthews instead of McRath.
“This defense needs to be torn down and completely rebuilt”
This was a post on the game thread for our pitiful end-of-season outing against the Panthers in 2008. And I was hardly alone in the sentiment that we needed to start over on defense: Payton and Loomis agreed, too, and subsequently replaced Gibbs with Williams. And how is that comment any more a swipe at Shanle than it is at, for instance, Vilma?
Let’s see: who has to go? Smith, Shanle, Gay, David, Harper, Bullocks…who else?
This was a reply, on the same game thread, made in anger at the shoddy, phone-it-in play of a number of Saints. On that same thread, in reply to the question “what needs to change.” I wrote “Drew Brees. He needs to have a brand-new team attached to him.” Guess what? I didn’t really mean that, either. I was angry, and I got over it.
"My prediction for next year's SB: Saints vs. 2nd Place."
you should work for the DNC
Hey, let’s not get personal. I’d rather work for Ralph Nader, for the record.
That’s a lot of typing to try and wriggle out of the point: You didn’t like Shanle, you saw him as expendable. And you probably still do. Which is fine. Just own it.
Jesus1000 is a concept by which we measure our pain.
As someone who DOES work for the DNC, I resemble that remark.
Snap, place, kick! And it's good! It's good! It's goo-hoo-hood! Pigs have flown! Hell Has frozen over! The Saints are going to the Superbowl!
by Joseph William Stern on Feb 21, 2010 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
The Do Not Call register?
The Distributed Network Computing group?
Den norske Creditbank ?
DNC, really? Man.
Jesus1000 is a concept by which we measure our pain.
Well, technically I work for Organizing for America, which is technically an independent entity from the White House and DNC proper.
Snap, place, kick! And it's good! It's good! It's goo-hoo-hood! Pigs have flown! Hell Has frozen over! The Saints are going to the Superbowl!
by Joseph William Stern on Feb 21, 2010 3:37 PM CST up reply actions
ACORN? Just kidding. Good for you. And thank you for your service to your country.
Jesus1000 is a concept by which we measure our pain.
Did ACORN change its name?
Don’t thank me yet. Thank me when the job is done. I’ll be the first to say we could be doing a much better job.
Snap, place, kick! And it's good! It's good! It's goo-hoo-hood! Pigs have flown! Hell Has frozen over! The Saints are going to the Superbowl!
by Joseph William Stern on Feb 21, 2010 3:43 PM CST up reply actions
Nutts!!!!!!!!!
"Sometimes there's just not enough rocks". Forrest Gump
by CaddoCoonass on Feb 21, 2010 8:26 PM CST up reply actions
That was a lot of typing to do
to try to make me look like a hypocrite. Now, of course, being human, I am a hypocrite…but that has nothing to do with my opinion of Shanle.
Is he expendable? Sure…like 90% of the team. Name me more than five players who couldn’t be replaced with someone better? The point of this whole post wasn’t that we can’t do better than Shanle, but that we could do a lot worse. Which is essentially exactly what I said on Jan. 19, 2009, when I wrote “But losing both of them means we’d just have to use the savings to bring in new linebackers; would they be any better?”
"My prediction for next year's SB: Saints vs. 2nd Place."
by MtnExile on Feb 21, 2010 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Now, of course, being human, I am a hypocrite
Some of us try harder than others not to be one. I just enjoy pointing that out.
Jesus1000 is a concept by which we measure our pain.
MtnExile. stujo4. DON'T make me stop this car!!!!!
Fat, dumb, and happy. Hell, two out of three ain't bad!
I Want To Die In My Sleep Like My Grandpa – Not Screaming and Yelling Like His Passengers.
by Just 'Nother Day on Feb 21, 2010 3:49 PM CST up reply actions
I understand that one of the points of contention here is as to who has the largest genitalia.
My entrance into this debate should however render the discussion moot since everyone already knows I have the largest genitalia of any of us, second of course to Sean Payton.
Snap, place, kick! And it's good! It's good! It's goo-hoo-hood! Pigs have flown! Hell Has frozen over! The Saints are going to the Superbowl!
by Joseph William Stern on Feb 21, 2010 3:54 PM CST reply actions
expendable: 2. Not worth salvaging or reusing. 3. Not strictly necessary; dispensable
Dan Campbell is expendable. Scott Shanle is not and hasn’t been since 2006.
Jesus1000 is a concept by which we measure our pain.
Yet again
you cherry-pick. You forgot the fourth sense:
4. Open to sacrifice in the interests of gaining an objective
"My prediction for next year's SB: Saints vs. 2nd Place."
you need to stop before I bleed you out
So you find a better linebacker than Shanle, who starts. Shanle doesn’t even get to stay on the team for second string? Or special teams? “sacrificed”
Yeah, you’re a defender, all right. “How do you sleep, you f*****g c**t??” – John Lennon, outtake
Jesus1000 is a concept by which we measure our pain.
C'mon guys. Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.
Fat, dumb, and happy. Hell, two out of three ain't bad!
I Want To Die In My Sleep Like My Grandpa – Not Screaming and Yelling Like His Passengers.
by Just 'Nother Day on Feb 21, 2010 4:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
HA!
Maybe I can facilitate a CSC retreat on respectful disagreement or something like that at our Annual CSC Summer Picnic/Tailgate Party.
You know, with trust falls, talking sticks, role plays, “I messages” and the like…
"In the end, the bread was in the pudding." Bobby McCray
haha
thats like my nightmare
Wanna say something? Sign up! It's free!
by Dave Cariello on Feb 21, 2010 4:30 PM CST up reply actions
heck, yeah
at my retreats we have “feats of strength”
we can attach the zipline to the Festivus pole…
"In the end, the bread was in the pudding." Bobby McCray
brilliant
Wanna say something? Sign up! It's free!
by Dave Cariello on Feb 21, 2010 6:42 PM CST up reply actions
Hand-puppets
Now children, lets all listen to ‘Mr. Hat’
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Feb 22, 2010 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
I defend Shanle against the charge of being the worst linebacker in the league
That doesn’t mean I have to be blind to his actual talent level. We can improve on his play with the right addition. Or, we can stand pat and probably be okay, and spend our resources improving some other part of the team. Any improvement necessarily makes somebody expendable.
And I’m sorry, I shouldn’t have made that crack about the DNC. More like SEIU, actually.
"My prediction for next year's SB: Saints vs. 2nd Place."
by MtnExile on Feb 21, 2010 4:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd it
Personally I’m the kind of guy that loves to see friends (and I hope ME and stujo4 are) get into heated exchanges, get passionate, and then at the end of the day remain friends…
Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die!
WHO DAT?!
by LA_No1_SaintFan on Feb 21, 2010 4:26 PM CST reply actions
I have no problem with the actual post, boom rec'd it
Note that I ignore Walter WTF, who I don’t even understand what deal it is that he has, but I DO know he’s a BIG ass hypocrite and you’ll have to do your own analysis on that.
Jesus1000 is a concept by which we measure our pain.
Boom!
I rec’d it even though I would still look to upgrade Shanle’s position. Hell, I’m still in favor of looking to add pieces in the secondary with the draft.
I tend to take a “let’s always try and get better no matter what” philosophy to the team.
"Gowin on fourth and 14 will punt it away. He hangs it very high, angling it for the near sideline...HAKIM DROPS THE BALL!!! HAKIM DROPS THE BALL!! Brian Milne might've fallen on it at the ten yard line! It's the New Orleans Saints' football! Brian Milne, the most unlikely hero of them all, falls on the fumble, the muff by Hakim! There is a God after all!" -- Jim Henderson
by hakimdropstheball on Feb 21, 2010 5:23 PM CST reply actions
ditto
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Feb 22, 2010 1:33 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed, M-E!
There was a T-P article awhile back stating Payton and Shanle’s team members couldn’t understand where all the Shanle-hate came from; they think he’s IN-dispensable. Judging from what I’ve noticed of his play, I think he’s a little slow in coverage, but generally holds up well everywhere else.
Frankly, older – excuse me – more mature members of the fan base like me were spoiled by the Dome Patrol days. We don’t have those guys anymore, and we don’t play the same scheme any more (most of the time).
I agree with M-E. There are better linebackers than Shanle, but he’s definitely not the worst in the league.
Every player cannot be a pro bowler so tough choices must be made. I believe in th Sean!!
"Sometimes there's just not enough rocks". Forrest Gump
Hello?
Hey guys n Gals, I see I a came back just in time. Now that the final tally is on our tagline, which I whole heartedly adhere to, cry to, and believe in, I am very grateful to be a member of such a fine blog house.
And to give a little input on this post, I have to agree, with ALL OF THE ABOVE.
Reason being,
1. Since, we are fans of the NOW World Champs, kind of Heady isnt it?, we are now experts. Since we have cheered our team on to such unheard of heights and glory, we now can become total experts on how to run a team. I agree with every one of the fans that have been here since the hedges of Tulane Stadium came into play.
2. And now that TIVO is available, we now watch more film than Peyton does. I am personally on “THE CALL” list on draft day for at least 3 organizations, Saints included.
3. UFA is only a dream for us SuperFans, as, we wont get any this year, due to us cheering the team onto untold heights, rare air for Saints fans, for sure.
4. As a fan of the Saints, an active member of the WHO DAT NATION, and a member of this blog, I hereby want to appoint all of the arm chair QB’s as assistant coaches & front office personnel, that way, we will be assured of another Super Bowl victory next year, since we are the reason they won it this year, I am sure you will want to make sure you get front row seats for next years game.
Always wondered what a glass or two of wine would do for my blogging ablilities, since I am not offshore today.
I like it!! I love it!! I want some mo of it!! Supa Bowl Rings, Dat Is!!
Well
In defense of Shanle, if he were the worst OLB in the NFL, don’t you think that the colts would have gone after him on almost every play? And won because of it? So he really isn’t that bad, just a solid LB.
The real question is, who should we replace? I think we need a new DT, and badly, followed by a DE, followed by another good LB for later or for competition (which might be Arnoux, mind you), and then…maybe someone to groom in Sharper’s place?…and honestly, we won the Superbowl, it’s not like we need tons of new guys.
by Andrew Tessier on Feb 21, 2010 11:04 PM CST reply actions
I wish I could rec the original post more than once!!
Another tidbit that no one seems to recognize is that OLBs are always the defenders that 1) don’t usually stand out as superstars 2) get burned in those :jerk routes." 3) have some of the most difficult assignments because they have to cover a back or a TE (big difference there) and also be able to shed blocks of a Guard, Tackle, FB, TE or running back. So they have to be able to run pretty fast, oh yeah and they also should be big as a house. So, no one big as a house can run like a deer ( and be agile also) – so you do the best you can. You get a good athlete who is tough and strong, fairl;y big, but not too big, and can run well. The problem is, by definition, these guys can do a little (or a lot) of everything, but are really not specialists at anything. Especially with the advent of no-huddle offenses, they have to be able to do it all. How many athletes can be able to do it all and then are exceptional at all the tasks??
Look around at other teams. How many OLBs actually stand out? MLBs are easy to pinpoint stars. OLBs not as much (unless it’s a 3-4 and mostly all they do is rush the QB) .
"I think we agree, the past is over" - George W Bush
"The greatest enemy of knowlege is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge" Stephen Hawking
“Look around at other teams. How many OLBs actually stand out? MLBs are easy to pinpoint stars.”
In a nutshell. This is why it’s of the utmost importance to grab a standout OLB when one becomes available. Solid MLBs are truly a dime a dozen. That’s not to take anything away from Vilma, as it’s been misconstrued coming from me in the past. He’s upper tier at his position and light years better than Simoneaux, in the reactionary skills dept. Still, it’s a position that doesn’t take a whole lot of phenomenalism to master. Put it this way … Jack Lambert would have likely made the Hall of Fame on any team in the NFL. Yet, without Lambert, the Steel Curtain is still the epitome of a bend-don’t-break defense at worst. Without Jack Ham, however, they’re not anything close to the relentless unit we all remember. That’s not to say a lot of Ham’s success didn’t stem from Joe Greene and L.C. Greenwood upfront. Of course, it did. A lot of Mel Blount’s success stemmed from that, as well. Greatness breeds greatness across the board. From a sheer numbers standpoint, though, the great OLBs are few and far between. That’s both today and throughout the history of the game. Great MLBs? They’re everywhere you look. Centrally located tackling machines. Generally speaking, that’s all they are.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Saints needs
M-E You should write another article, and give your opinion of what we do need. Although I’m sure you will have some critics out there, I liked your points of view.
Suck da head, and pinch da tail
by SaintJenkins on Feb 22, 2010 8:34 AM CST reply actions
general manager?
should we just cut micky loose. along w/ shanlee and a few other middle of the road TEAMMATES?
let me know, i will be sure to yell my support of sumtin!!!
I like it!! I love it!! I want some mo of it!! Supa Bowl Rings, Dat Is!!
“The most surprising thing was this: Shanle spent the majority of the game not at weakside linebacker—his usual position—but at strongside linebacker.”
His usual position WHEN? He’s been playing the Sam all season. I don’t see how this qualifies as surprising, unless the Super Bowl is the first Saints game you watched since December 2008.
Fujita is a better Will (and Sam) than Shanle, but Shanle is definitely a better Sam than he is a Will. The flip-flop was one of the better personnel adjustments Gregg Williams made this past season.
That being said, I’m not happy with the overall play of Shanle, Fujita or any OLB on the team. Perhaps that’s a bit harsh. I have yet to see Stanley Arnoux play. They’re seemingly all milquetoast C-grade athletes.
We haven’t had even a hint of a playmaker at the position since Keith Mitchell’s lone Pro Bowl season in 2001. And even that’s a stretch, as most of Mitchell’s success came as a situational pass rusher from the DE position. You have to go all the way back to Darion Conner in 1994 to pinpoint a legitimate disruptor at OLB. That’s a ludicrous stretch of mediocrity, imo. I honestly can’t think of one other NFL team that hasn’t had at least one top notch OLB since the turn of the century.
Is it our BIGGEST need? Probably not. I still think a true franchise left tackle would do more to improve the team on the whole than any other single position. I also don’t see us landing anyone of the Willie Roaf mold again anytime soon. I’ve never bought into the notion that a DT is more important than outside containment. If we had a shot at Ndamukong Suh, I’d go that route again in a heartbeat. Not otherwise. DE is the only other position that bears first round consideration and I don’t see anyone we could realistically land at 32nd overall that would outperform Charles Grant, to the extent that an available OLB would outperform (insert ousted starting OLB here).
Given my druthers, I’d prefer that to be a Will — Eric Norwood is a perfect fit, imo — with Fujita tentatively penciled back in as the Sam. I have no problem with Shanle sticking around as the backup Sam. Maybe Arnoux pushes Norwood for the Will. Maybe Simoneaux returns and solidifies the depth at both for a season. Maybe they draft a second OLB and things really get interesting in training camp. Regardless, it’s my target hotspot going into the draft. For the record, if the first two rounds go Norwood, Gerhart, you guys are gonna have a really hard time getting rid of me.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
That’s assuming Fujita re-signs. If he doesn’t, I think WLB is pretty much a slam dunk at 32.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
boom rec'd it
And most if not all of the previous comment (didn’t read it all).
And even if they retain Fujita, I think it’s still a slam dunk at 32. Taking diet pepsi bets.
What makes you think I won't cut you?
Milquetoast? Seriously? I mean, calling them sub-par athletes, I can see that. I can’t fully agree, but I can see your point. But calling them weak-minded, timid, childish or unassertive? Especially after some of Fujita’s comments? Agree, disagree, love, hate, or anything in between, expressing his opinion like that was definitely NOT the act of a weak-minded waffler.
For those who can't remember the uncapped FA rules, this link's for you.
The title of this thread is scarier than "The Boys From Brazil", btw.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
As scary as all this LT talk?
(By the way, If anyone’s wondering, my new pic is buddy jesus with “WWJ1000D?” over it. You may all now stand in awe.)
Snap, place, kick! And it's good! It's good! It's goo-hoo-hood! Pigs have flown! Hell Has frozen over! The Saints are going to the Superbowl!
by Joseph William Stern on Feb 22, 2010 9:15 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
totally in awe
boom rec’d it
Try to realize it's all within yourself
No one else can make you change
And M-E switched his to John Lennon
excellent
Try to realize it's all within yourself
No one else can make you change
AWE-SOME!
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Feb 23, 2010 9:51 PM CST up reply actions
Leave the personnel descisions to the pros...
Bill Parcels while with the Cowboys said he was most upset about loosing Shanle. I trust him, Payton and Williams over anyone else.
So, just a guess but
at the beginning of the season, everyone will be howling about their correct calls on which players stay and which don’t. And, the rest will be quickly have amnesia. And, I’m sure that the management of the team is poring over, in unending detail, all of the in-depth analysis and critical insights from this site.
WHODAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dynasty - 2009 - ????
And, I’m sure that the management of the team is poring over, in unending detail, all of the in-depth analysis and critical insights from this site.
Forgot the sarcasm font.
Try to realize it's all within yourself
No one else can make you change
hey, I like that
Lito Sheppard! oooh oooh
LSU! LSU!
That ibid guy from the colts blog, he’s a valued contributor.
I believe in a strict, literal, interpretation of The Constitution as well as The Holy Bible.
Delicious!
Try to realize it's all within yourself
No one else can make you change
Hope!
Change!
Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!
You’re right, it works.
"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives." --J.O.L.
<sarcasm> should be this though</sarcasm>
"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives." --J.O.L.
I retract my apology.
And here’s a new avatar for you.
Ever see that movie “Idiocracy”?
Try to realize it's all within yourself
No one else can make you change
What a beautiful avatar
Is that outside a naval base? No, never saw that movie…I’ve been too busy breeding lately. I’m up to 32 now!
"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives." --J.O.L.
"Idiocracy" is one of the saddest movies I've ever seen...
…because it is so spot on about the future of our society.
It’s definitely a “must see”.
I can’t wait for their Starbucks to be a reality. j/k
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
what font do you use when you're quoting The Simpsons?
"In the end, the bread was in the pudding." Bobby McCray
I play TE
Just for the fact that I do have the advantage of blocking and chipping and throwing the defender off me. I was playing the slot reciever for a while but have gained a little weight since the glory days. So now i just squat my fat self on the line and get my little outs and curls. And with Clark he’s going to get his catches, and i know we’ve all seen clark have better games than the SB game this year.
PSN: greenwald2004
Hit me up on the sticks! Madden 10 is my game now.
I would like
one of them to be replaced. I really don’t think there would be much of a difference in replacing Shanle or replacing Fujita. They are both decent players but I’d like to get more athletic at one of those positions. A good pass rushing DE would probably be an ideal pick but at 32 that’ll be pretty hard to come by.
"Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth." --Mike Tyson
I agree. Arnoux could factor in, as well. We really don’t know what we’ve got in him yet.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
I also agree
If GDub thinks Arnoux or someone else should start over Shanle or Fujita, I’m ok with that. Just hope we don’t all go Joni Mitchell after the fact…. you know… big yellow taxi…. you don’t know what you got til it’s gone…..
"We’re going to pay attention to salary structure just like we always have." -Loomis
yeah, we wallowed a bit after jettisoning Carney after 2006...
"In the end, the bread was in the pudding." Bobby McCray
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