The Most Boring Off-Season Ever Heating Up?
by Dave Cariello on Mar 16, 2010 6:00 AM CDT
57 comments
zzzzz....zzzzz....zzzzz....
Oh, sorry; didn't see you there. I guess I must've fallen asleep. Can you blame me? This has got to be the most boring, uneventful off-season in the history of all off-season's. Not that it's a surprise, of course, just that I had no idea it would actually be this boring. You know something is seriously wrong if both Canal Street Chronicles and the Times-Pic are finding inspiration from Pro Football Talk.
The unrestricted free agency period has been, ironically, restricted for the Saints thanks to the new CBA provisions for top playoff teams so there aren't many possible free agent acquisitions to discuss and debate. Once Fujita left for Cleveland and the team was finally allowed to join the fun, most of the players they'd scheduled visits with either cancelled or signed with another team (Delhomme, Little, Kemoeatu). James Hall is the only player they might sign but that's looking neither likely nor interesting.
So I've made that inspiration of our featured poll on the left sidebar for a little while here. Go cast your vote. It's also the first topic up for debate and consideration. Feel free to also use this thread to discuss previous off-seasons and how they compare to this one so far. What was the most exciting off-season in Saints history? And by all means, share your thoughts on how you think this off-season is shaping up thus far.
If there has been anything noteworthy to talk about this off-season it is other teams' interest in Saints free agents and the depressing, worrisome fear that the front office might let our championship team be picked apart like a Thanksgiving turkey. Scott Fujita's gone, Charles Grant got the axe, Sharper's status is still up in the air, Mike Bell requires no compensation to sign elsewhere and now Anthony Hargrove is attracting interest. There are quite a few key names on that list.
Honestly, I think given the amount of free agents the Saints had to deal with this off-season, they've done a good job of "showing the love" and appear to have made some smart, tough decisions in an effort to save some money and not overpay (see: Sharper). Since many of the players they had to handle in free agency were restricted, however, and since that part of the free agency period doesn't heat up until the unrestricted free agency period cools, the possibility of future pillaging does exist. It's important to remember that they just can't keep everyone; it's the nature of the beast. Especially given their apparently high payroll and with future contracts to think about.
Hargrove's scheduled visit to Detroit may signal that drying up of the unrestricted free agent pool and forecast the league-wide movement of teams beginning to dip into the restricted free agent market. Since we don't have much else to talk about, I am making that the second topic for today. If Hargrove were made an offer, the Saints would then have the option to match that offer or let him walk and receive a third round draft pick. What would you prefer to see the Saints do if put in that situation? Is Hargrove a valuable part of this team or would a third round pick be of better use? Is the off-season about to get more exciting and possibly more worrisome?
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Hargrove has some mileage left
I think he will continue to do well and will aim high to make up for lost time. Keep him.
"I think we agree, the past is over" - George W Bush
"The greatest enemy of knowlege is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge" Stephen Hawking
by Philinwood on Mar 16, 2010 6:03 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I think it depends on the contract. If it’s a really big one, let him go. If it’s actually still “backup” money, keep him without a blink.
For those who can't remember the uncapped FA rules, this link's for you.
Better to make no moves than make dumb moves
At least we aren’t Broncos fans. Imagine being forced to try to get excited about having Brady Quinn be named the future of your franchise. Thats one of those thoughts that brings on a full body shiver. Or the 49ers. I mean, David Carr? Really? Why not just admit that you have given up on fielding an offense and will be relying on Patrick Willis forced fumbles to win all of your games.
But on Hargrove, yeah, he’s one of those hard working guys that really came through for us this year. I think we’ll have to match the offer if somebody tries to snag him.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
PAY DA MAN!
They’re not gonna offer him Peppers-type money.
If he’s gonna start for us, he can be paid “starter money”. That DOESN’T mean he has to be a highly paid starter, but somewhere in the range of starters is ok with me.
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
I don’t understand how you can say we should spend a 1st rounder on a DT, yet we should be paying Hargrove starting money. Unless, you see him as a starting DE, which I definitely don’t.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
If he’s gonna start for us, he can be paid "starter money".
If we’re gonna loose Hargrove, we need to pickup a FA that can take his place. Even if our first three draft picks are OLB, DT, DE, those THREE ROOKIES will NOT be enough to replace what we had last year, much less improve or defense.
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
First round picks on the defensive line are generally expected to start. If Detroit offers Hargrove starting pay, you can’t put that decision on the backburner until April 22nd. What I’m saying is, they’re going to have to call that shot based on who’s currently in the fold. If it comes down to “Hargrove and Ellis are our starting DTs” they’re not going to turn around and urinate away a first round pick on a DT. If they think they can upgrade, they’re going to let him walk. I understand what you’re saying. But aren’t you one of the guys that have been beating the “need for a DT first and foremost” drum? Maybe I’m confusing you for someone else. Regardless, it has to be one or the other. Even at 32nd overall, that’s a whole lot of money to be sitting on the bench.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
nah… I’m not beating any draft day drums, except “I don’t like draft picks. I’d trade ’em all away for proven talent.” Admittedly, I don’t know too much about the draft other than, the draft (past the first round and luck in the later rounds) is not to fill today’s need… it’s for building for the future.
IMHO, if you have a need NOW, you need to go out get and get proven talent to fill the position… see Jonathan Vilma, Jabari Greer, Jeremy Shockey, Darren Sharper, Scott Fujita, Mark Simoneau… there are others, but you get the point.
And…
I agree… If we keep Hargrove and they want Hargrove to be a DT, then our first round pick will be another position of need… maybe OLB or DE.
-
We lost a DE, in Grant.
If they keep Hargorve (which I hope they do) and move him to DT, that leaves a need at DE. But, we also have a need at OLB.
So, my suggestion/hope/yearning is to get one of those in FA and one in the first round of the draft.
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
Gotta agree with Friarbob
It depends on the $$$ that Detroit or anyone else offers him. I like Anthony Hargrove and greatly appreciate what he has brought to the Saints, but I do not see him as an elite defensive lineman.
Some people are like slinkies. They don't really serve a purpose but they bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.
Detroit 3rd is basically a 2nd, it's a very deep draft, wouldn't mind having an extra pick
by AKAY47 on Mar 16, 2010 9:33 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Rec
Hargrove had a good season one year removed from a year long suspension.
He was inspirational, but only used as a situational player. He is one f-up from another suspension.
Detroits 3rd is basically a second, it’s a very deep draft…
I’d try and collect all the 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks we can in this draft, if it makes sense. We can’t get sentimental about it. Hargrove for an early 3rd round pick makes sense to me.
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Mar 16, 2010 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Not to mention collecting picks also allows us to
go after other restricted free agents or trade for players and still have picks left over
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Mar 16, 2010 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
So... If we loose Hargrove...
We’re gonna need, at a minimum, a starting DE, starting DT, and starting OLB.
Can we get that in the draft + the injured LB from last years draft?
If we loose Sharper, add a starting Safety or Corner to that list. (We’d need a corner, if we moved Jenkins to Safety.)
And, that’s not upgrading our depth, which is already thin at corner.
That’s a minimum of FOUR starters on defense. Payton/Loomis are going to have to pull off some magic to find them… or start signing a free agent or two… They should have started that a long time ago, but better late than never.
“This is not Detroit, man! This is the Superbowl!!”
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
“We’re gonna need, at a minimum, a starting DE, starting DT, and starting OLB.
Can we get that in the draft + the injured LB from last years draft?"
I honestly don’t think we need to spend a high pick on a DT. Between Pressley and Ayodele, I satistified. DE and OLB, yes. And I definitely think we can fulfill those needs with 2 out of the first 70 or so picks in the draft. Hargrove only started six games for the Saints this past season. Why would his departure automatically equate to “must replace with starter”? I don’t understand that part. Grab a replacement DT in the 4th or 6th. It’s really not that big of a deal, imo. The ‘09 shortcomings were in pass rushing and outside containment against the run, NOT up the middle. If we can land an extra 3rd rounder, address OLB and DE upfront (in either order) and spend both of those 3rds on solidifying the running game, i.e., OL + short yardage bull, I’m happy. If Sharper departs, the temptation to take another DB early will be there. I’d take the same approach there as I would with replacing Hargrove. Go with what we already have and eithe rreplace them with capable backups later in the draft or in free agency. The DE in the first two picks can be Ray Edwards, btw. Which is something the Saints are actually considering, based on a WWL report on the radio this morning. Pretty sure it was merely a suggestion on here.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Agree
We have more depth at DT than at DE.
No one truly knows about the linebacker situation.
by jeremysherwin on Mar 16, 2010 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Specialized players are better players.
We won this year by switching guys out and moving them around, but if you gave Hargrove the opportunity to study and prepare for one position (I don’t mind him being the DT.) then I believe he will be more effective.
But, if you keep him in the same, part-time starter, part-time DE, part-time DT role that he had this year, then he’s going to have a similar (albeit, not bad) year.
But, if you get him someone to complement him at DE, I think he will be even more effective.
(This is where I have the desire for a starting DE… It can be Edwards… I’d like that.)
And, again, if Sharper leaves we’ll need to replace his starting role… And, if you do it with Jenkins, then we need a starting CB. (Yes, he needs to be a starter because you never know when your top THREE corners are going to go down, and you’ll need some help there.)
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
PS. It could just be a smokescreen by Detroit...
Trying to throw off other teams as to what their first pick will be.
If they trade for Hargrove, maybe they take a left tackle in the first.
I’m hoping.
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
It wouldn’t be a trade. He’s a RFA that hasn’t signed his tender.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Out of curiosity, what happens if we sign a RFA with a 5th round tender? Troy Smith, for example. Would we have to give up our 4th rounder, or would the value equivalent suffice? As in our 6th, 7th … and maybe next year’s 7th, if that’s what it took to equal a 5th. Or are we simply not allowed to sign players with that level of compensation, being that we don’t have that pick to offer?
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
good question
no idea
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by Dave Cariello on Mar 16, 2010 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
we could
we would just have to offer something that their current team would consider equal to a 5th. I remember reading something about a situation similar to what you just described. Im not 100% sure on this though but im pretty sure thats how it works.
The situation you are probably thinking about is the 3rd string QB from the Chargers (who is tendered as a 3rd rounder) being wooed by the Cards and the Hawks. The Seahawks don’t have a third round pick but have already negotiated with the Chargers for “acceptable compensation” if he decides to sign with them.
And the same would apply to us. If we wanted a guy who had a 5th round tender we’d pre-negotiate for acceptable compensation before we signed him.
For those who can't remember the uncapped FA rules, this link's for you.
yeah… apparently he’s a hot commodity now.
(I’d love to know how teams learn about other teams backup QB, enough to get into a bidding war over him.)
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
Probably from their scouting department, from when he initially came out of college.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
So, college and pre-season?
Is that how Carolina discovered Jake? I guess he did have a game or two in the regular season… but that was enough to make them go after him?
Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints HAVE WON the Superbowl!!
I guess. Maybe an assistant coach leaves one team for another or someone makes a recommendation to a friend … that type of thing. It sure isn’t by virtue of practice film.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
There’s a general buzz about certain players, too. Take Matt Cassel, for example. Didn’t start a game at USC, but the scouts knew enough about him for him to get drafted. Brett Favre, Matt Schaub, Mark Brunell, Matt Hasselbeck … all those guys were backups given the keys to the car with another team. Remember, Delhomme had NFL Europe going for him, too. Didn’t he win the championship game over there?
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
He did
1999 NFL Europe Champ with the Frankfurt Galaxy. Also the team that gave Paul Spicer a chance at pro football a few years later.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
by VAsaintsfan on Mar 17, 2010 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions
One example that comes to mind is the trade for Wes Welker
Back when he was with the Dolphins he was offered 2nd round tender when he hit restricted free agency. The rumor was that the Patriots were going to make an offer that the Fins simply couldn’t hope to match. But the teams worked out a trade, sending the Patriots 2nd and 7th round picks to Miami and sending Welker to the Pats on a contract that was about half of what they would have had to offer him in the restricted free agent market. Everyone walked away a winner, except Wes Welker.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
Welker would had to have either signed the tender or negotiated a new contract with the Dolphins, in order for them to trade him. I don’t see how either option would have worked against him.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
There was a little poison pill strategy involved.
The Patriots threatened to put a poison pill clause in their offer that would make it impossible for Miami to match it. Under that threat the Dolphins agreed to a trade that gave them slightly more than the 2nd round pick they would have gotten as RFA compensation. But it did not get Welker the pay raise he would have gotten if the Patriots had been required to make a legitimate, non-cheater (half joking here) offer to the Dolphins.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
I understand the dynamics of the situation you’re describing … but if that were truly the case, why wouldn’t Welker just refuse to sign the Dolphins’ tender? As a RFA, you’re not obligated to facilitate a trade. He could have just as easily forced the Patriots to do whatever they felt necessary, in order to obtain his services. In acquiescing the trade, he negotiated his worth to the Dolphins at some point. I don’t know the specifics of the rollover. Maybe it was just the one year tender and he’s been given an extension by the Patriots since(?) Regardless, it’s not like the two teams colluded to circumvent his approval. For all intents and purposes, he rubber stamped it “OK” with his John Hancock on the tender … or contract extension … or however they went about it.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
I think it would get bumped up to a 4th.
I think it would have been the same situation we were in with the Vilma and Shockey trades a while back. About how if Vilma’s contract was renewed we owe the jets a 2nd round pick instead of a 3rd while the Giants already owned our 2nd round pick. In that case the Jets would have had the right to our 1st round pick because we couldn’t fulfill the obligation of a 2nd round pick, and that was why we had to let Vilma become a free agent for like 10 minutes before resigning him. So my take from that is that if you owe a pick that you don’t have to a team, then that team has the right our next lowest round pick.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
by VAsaintsfan on Mar 16, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I think that's different
because that was a conditional situation, based on certain circumstances.
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by Dave Cariello on Mar 16, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
I’m pretty sure the reason that would have been different was because they were straight trades rather than RFAs.
For those who can't remember the uncapped FA rules, this link's for you.
If that’s the case, are the Bears not allowed to sign any RFAs higher than 3rd level? They don’t have a pick before that.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Unless they do some seriously fancy negotiating, yes.
For those who can't remember the uncapped FA rules, this link's for you.
Hopefully we can get younger
without getting dumber. We need some veterans to stick around. I’m not liking the sight of losing role players. Sure we have some young players who might be able to do something, but handing over the reins to them so quickly makes me a little nervous.
I wouldn't mind getting half the "love" that the Saints are willing to give Sharper...
Hargrove had a solid season for us
but I worry about him staying sober. Let him get his pay day in Detroit and we can use the extra picks to move up in the first round and get a Stud DT. As much as I like the guy he is only one screw up away from being out of the league for a long time. Would make sense to take the pick.
I'd love to keep Hargrove but...
We can’t overspend. If Detroit offers him a boatload of money, then we let him walk and take the 3rd round pick. DT is a need for a reason. He’s good depth, but not worth the big bucks, especially with a good chunk of our nucleus up for contracts in the next year or two.
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010
We need to match for Hargrave
I mean, who else will we have in the middle of the DL?
I mean, our D will be WORSE if we don’t upgrade across the board
Without an improved D, we will struggle to make the playoffs next year
Good to know it isn't always this bad
"I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious." - Vince Lombardi
Why don't we just all loiter around Dave's store?
Since we’re so bored and all?
I’m sure we wouldn’t scare off too many customers…
J1000 and Deckape, are you with me?
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Mar 17, 2010 6:54 PM CDT reply actions
“I’m sure we wouldn’t scare off too many customers…”
Aww, come on. Where’s the fun in that? I think we should hide under the clothing rack and yell “Who Dat?” every time someone begins to browse the t-shirts. Maybe grab them by the ankle and proclaim “Master, I’ve captured one!”
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
I'll bring the six-pack
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Mar 18, 2010 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions
If it's too expensive to keep him..
let him go and grab the EARLY 3rd round pick. Up or down decision for me.
Anything in between 2-2.8 million (a year) for 2-3 years sounds reasonable. Preferably on the low end of that amount of course.
What's up Ryan? ARGHHHHHH!!! oops. ~ Patrick Chewing
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