Possible Saints Free Agent Acquisition Clint Ingram: Hard to Love
by Dave Cariello on May 18, 2010 6:00 AM CDT
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PrintDuring his 'State of the Union' press conference in early March, Mickey Loomis identified linebacker (along with defensive end) as a position of need to be addressed this off-season...
We have a need at both of those positions [linebacker and defensive end]...Hopefully we’ll be able to fill both of those spots between free agency and the draft.
Yet it's now mid-May and the Saints have done nothing at the linebacker position other than the addition of undrafted free agents Harry Coleman and Sam Maxwell. Hardly what I would call a serious effort.
In late April the Saints hosted Jacksonville Jaguars free agent linebacker Clint Ingram, who left without a contract. But we learned yesterday via Jason LaCanfora's tweet that Ingram has an offer to play in New Orleans and is seriously giving it consideration. Not a surprise if you follow our local sports reporters closely however; they always get the scoop before the national guys. All joking aside, Jeff Duncan was aware of the teams interest in Ingram and said so on May 10th, also via Twitter...
Ingram is the target. Weighing injury concerns right now.
Obviously, this makes sense. Ingram is another former player of defensive coordinator Gregg Williams from his one year coaching stint in Jacksonville.
So who is this guy and is he really a good fit for the Saints? Shut up, read on and find out.
Why is he available?
A restricted free agent at the start of the off-season, the Jaguars offered Ingram an original-round tender - which for Ingram was the third round - so it's not like he was completely unwanted in Jacksonville. Feeling undervalued though, he refused to sign the tender and let the deadline to sign pass. Late last month, Jacksonville rescinded their tender offer, making Ingram an unrestricted free agent; a bizarre move, given his rights would had reverted back to Jacksonville's and they could have gotten their starter back for even less money than the original tender. Two days later, however, he was in New Orleans. Ingram was placed on injured reserve last year after a shoulder injury but my guess is that the arthroscopic knee surgery he underwent this off-season is more of the concern.
How much will he cost?
Clint Ingram's original-round tender offer from the Jags was valued at $1.266 million for one year, so it's hard to imagine he would command any more than that and chances are it will be less. It might be the comfort and security of a multi-year contract that's most important to Ingram and what eventually lands him in New Orleans. Regardless, I haven't heard of any other teams interested in the linebacker so Ingram is certainly not in the drivers seat. SB Nation's Jaguars blog, Big Cat Country, has some words of advice...
Take home message is this: Don't overpay... He's not worth it.
If he signs with the Saints, look for it to be valued at just over one million dollars a year.
Is he any good?
This is a tough question. Unlike the overwhelming endorsement I gave Alex Brown before the Saints eventually, and wisely I might add, signed the former Bears defensive end, I just can't do the same for Clint Ingram. After a great 2008, Jaguars coach Jack Del Rio called Ingram's 2009 season 'a disappointing year." Not what you want to hear.
Though he may very well be the best of the rest on the free agent market right now, the fans in Jacksonville don't seem to be too crazy about him either. Again, the word 'disappoint' seems to be a recurring theme.
If there was one player who disappointed more than any other last year, it was Clint Ingram. While Ingram was never a great all around linebacker, he was supposed to be the best of the bunch against the run. However, he failed to show even that this year. He was rated as one of the worst linebackers in the NFL according to PFF, and was replaced by Russell Allen at the end of the year.
Perhaps we're unfairly judging him. Like Jonathan Vilma with the Jets, Ingram has been stuck playing in a 3-4 with the Jaguars, a scheme that doesn't best suit his skill set. That may not be an excuse, however...
He clearly wasn't a 3-4 LB, and physically couldn't play it. He's developed into purely a power run stuffer, and he took poor angles on many occasions last season.What shocks me is that when the team went exclusively 4-3, he still struggled.
Formerly known for his superb ability at stopping the run, even that was severely lacking during last years let-down performance. These shortcomings were apparently evident as early as the middle of last season when he was labeled 'a rusty cog that needs changing' by bloggers and fans...
Poor play in the 4-3 defensive scheme is not what we expect from you. You've been part of the reason our run defense has been successful, and you were fair against the pass coming out of college. Neither has been the case this season, and the latter hasen't been the case since your second-year. Either your speed has altogether faltered, or you're over-thinking plays. I'm hoping it's just because you have been forced to learn so many defensive alignments and responsibilities as the Jaguars continue their yearly defensive coordinator carousel.
You getting the picture? Not great.
Should the Saints sign him?
As much as it pains me to say it: probably. The Saints are getting into 'desperate' territory here. They sure as hell need to do something and this appears to be their best opportunity so I say pull the trigger and hope for the best.
Here are some facts and figures for the stat geeks out there:
Stats courtesy of NFL.com
Career Statsmore
Season
Team
Tackles
Interceptions
Fumbles
G
GS
Comb
Total
Ast
Sck
SFTY
PDef
Int
Yds
Avg
Lng
TDs
FF
2009
Jacksonville Jaguars
13
12
52
42
10
1.0
--
0
--
--
0.0
--
--
0
2008
Jacksonville Jaguars
16
12
38
33
5
2.0
--
0
--
--
0.0
--
--
1
2007
Jacksonville Jaguars
13
11
33
29
4
1.0
0
1
1
39
39.0
39T
1
0
2006
Jacksonville Jaguars
14
11
71
55
16
1.5
--
2
1
0
0.0
0
0
0
TOTAL
194
159
35
5.5
0
3
2
39
--
39
1
1
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Comments
If they sign him and find that during training camp and pre-season he's not the guy,
they can cut him and only have paid him a minimal amount, right? He’s a real question mark. Possibly a change of scenery could be a big plus for him. Size – wise and age-wise he’s what you’re looking for. I would think GW would know if he’s got what it takes or doesn’t.
"I think we agree, the past is over" - George W Bush
"The greatest enemy of knowlege is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge" Stephen Hawking
Yeah you don’t make any of your “real” salary during training camp. The only money he gets before week one is bonus-type money (signing bonus / roster bonus / etc) plus a very minimal daily rate during OTAs and camp.
So yeah I say sign him. There are plenty of reasons he could have struggled in Jax that might not apply here. And there are plenty of reasons he could be washed up and suck. But sign him and find out one way or the other.
Hard to get excited about him
I don’t think I would really call him an improvement. I doubt he will start many games. I think this is just to add more depth to the platoon of Arnoux/Dunbar/Casillas. It doesn’t change our team any.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
Let's give the guy the benefit of the doubt...
I am sure G-dub somehow wishes to forget his time in JAX… may have something to do with JDR?
"Saints don't commit sins, they exorcise demons. The NFL most accurate passer was preaching, and the league MVP watched as the Game MVP delivered an impressive sermon"
By the way Dave...
Duncan may have mentioned Ingram a week ago but the fact there is an offer is kind of news… what are these guys in Nola doing… although LaCanfora has the “scoop” maybe you should still send a CV down there…. you may never know… lol
"Saints don't commit sins, they exorcise demons. The NFL most accurate passer was preaching, and the league MVP watched as the Game MVP delivered an impressive sermon"
If they’re going to go the former Sooner route, I’d rather see them sign Breaux Bridge native Rufus Alexander. He tore his ACL as a rookie and has been on and off of practice squads since. Big time overachiever at OU. I can’t imagine him not making the team, if given the opportunity to.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
I don't really have much to add to the discussion
but Jack Del Rio’s expression in that picture just cracks me up. I mean, if you are going to write a piece about whether it’s a good idea or not to sign a guy, that picture really is worth a thousand words. Nicely done.
I voted "no" because I still have my sights set on Rocky McIntosh...
…after Mike Detillier first mentioned that he thought the Saints could go after him a while back just about a month or so prior to this year’s draft. Maybe the situation with McIntosh just never materialized into anything agreeable to both sides (because of money issues, or whatever other reasons). Who knows since that particular one was pretty much under the radar of the mass media altogether?
Maybe the change of scenery will do Ingram a whole lot of good and he will work well in GW’s defensive schemes here in NOLA. I will trust in the decisions made by the front office guys here and just hope for the best overall scenario for our team moving forward into the 2010/11 season and beyond.
Re: Del Rio
If a former NFL LB isn’t going to get the best out of one of his own, what makes anyone think that an offensive minded coach would fare any better?
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Different scheme, different plays, different supporting cast, different mentality
It’s not like this guy is Urlacher and the former LB was building his defense around him, but was disappointed by the results… he was a cog in a not so great machine. He didn’t quite fit in that machine, but maybe he’ll fit in ours.
"Do not anticipate trouble or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. " ~Benjamin Franklin
yes
This sentence says to me, “Give the guy a chance.”
After a great 2008, Jaguars coach Jack Del Rio called Ingram’s 2009 season ’a disappointing year." Not what you want to hear.
Who was his defensive coordinator in 2008? Gregg Williams. After last season, I’m a firm believer in the ultimate importance of scheme over individual talent. G-Dub got much better performance out of mostly the same guys Gary Gibbs had when he was here. The Jags were an inconsistent mess last year, so I don’t think we should judge this guy on what he did last season. They obviously had poor coaching.
I agree with an above post that we should bring him under contract terms that will enable us to cut him at the end of training camp if he doesn’t perform well. What do we have to lose?
Also, I’m not so sure that Fujita’s replacement isn’t already in the building. A bigger question might be who is gonna be the LBs coach this year? It’s kinda lookin’ like Vitt may be about to lose his job.
"As soon as Tony (Dungy) said we had no chance, I knew we had 'em right where we wanted 'em"--Coach Sean Payton right after Super Bowl XLIV with the Lombardi Trophy firmly in hand. WHO DAT!!
by David "Satch" Kelly on May 18, 2010 9:33 AM CDT reply actions
“G-Dub got much better performance out of mostly the same guys Gary Gibbs had when he was here.”
Outside of turnovers, that’s highly debatable.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
At the risk of starting an argument thread,
are you serious? I don’t much care about what the rankings were. I know from a statistical point of view, the differences weren’t all that great. But, from a W-L point of view, Williams was a vast improvement over Gibbs. I remember them giving up some chunks of yardage in games, but I also remember them getting some key stops around the red zone when they had to. You’ll never get me to believe that last year’s D wasn’t better than the 2008 D under GIbbs.
Why would you exclude turnovers? That’s all part of playing defense.
"As soon as Tony (Dungy) said we had no chance, I knew we had 'em right where we wanted 'em"--Coach Sean Payton right after Super Bowl XLIV with the Lombardi Trophy firmly in hand. WHO DAT!!
by David "Satch" Kelly on May 18, 2010 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Because most of the turnovers were caused by players that Gibbs didn’t have in the lineup. I’m just saying that if you just take the players who played in both schemes, I wouldn’t call it a vast improvement by any stretch. Shanle played a little better on the strong side, Grant was about the same, Harper arguably regressed, Smith picked it up a good bit, Ellis was about the same, Fujita roughly the same … Porter simply played more often. Vilma was solid throughout. Who am I missing?
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
by coldpizza on May 18, 2010 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
REC'D IT CP
"I can eat oreos faster than him" Scott Fujita's take on Payton Manning SB44
by jeremysherwin on May 18, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
i didnt like gibbs but the additions of greer and sharper, along with a healthy porter, where huge
I see what you got...Lets rock - Al Bundy
by knucklesmalone on May 18, 2010 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I’m not saying they weren’t better on the whole, just that I can’t see how you can pinpoint the improvement on scheme over talent. Seems like they both had something to do with what little — or great, if you want to base improvement on number of wins — improvement there was.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
of course you're going to debate it
that’s what you do. But seriously, what are you arguing? That the defense under G-dub was not markedly better than that under the scarecrow? G-dub’s defense was better in results and attitude that scarecrow’s – period. Certainly, the addition of Greer and Sharper had a big impact on that, but does he not get credit for luring those players here and putting them in the position to excel? What do you think the chances are that Greer/Sharper come her if the scarecrow is still lurking around?
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010
That Scarecrow tag never caught on. Reminds me of that Johnny Cougar song.
Got a good reason
For taking the easy way out, now
I'll just keep using it
like George and “put your sorrys in a sack”
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010
“After last season, I’m a firm believer in the ultimate importance of scheme over individual talent.”
“but does he not get credit for luring those players here and putting them in the position to excel?”
Only if those players get credit for having the talent with which to excel. What does the acquisition on Greer and Sharper have to do with the scheme being run? Sure, Williams was here when they arrived, but they could have just as easily been acquired the season before, had their contracts been up and Loomis ponied up the cash. Regardless, that’s far more an argument towards talent than it is scheme, even if Williams is given 100% credit for their wanting to be here.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
“But seriously, what are you arguing?”
That you can’t rightly pin the improvement on the scheme, if the majority of that improvement is the result of new blood. For all you know, that new blood could have turned a Gary Gibbs led defense around.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
"For all you know, that new blood could have turned a Gary Gibbs led defense around."
Totally disagree. Gibbs as a DC was a failed experiment. That’s why he’s not a DC now. I think he went back to being a LB coach and is still doing that. I remember in 2008 when the D was awful and it was obvious the “scarecrow” didn’t have the attention of his players. We were all mostly posting here at da Chronic that the defensive scheme looked confused and disorganized.
New blood this past season was part of it, but I still believe it was Williams’s improved scheme, player accountability, and emphasis on creating turnovers that was the primary difference.
"As soon as Tony (Dungy) said we had no chance, I knew we had 'em right where we wanted 'em"--Coach Sean Payton right after Super Bowl XLIV with the Lombardi Trophy firmly in hand. WHO DAT!!
by David "Satch" Kelly on May 18, 2010 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
+1
I agree with satch… there’s no way that the ‘new blood’ alone (even if you count the release of the old #42) turned the D around.
new/improved scheme, emphasis on turnovers, new attitude, new focus, new preparation habits, and new players all contributed to our success.
"Do not anticipate trouble or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. " ~Benjamin Franklin
“What do you think the chances are that Greer/Sharper come her if the scarecrow is still lurking around?”
Assuming the scarecrow is Gibbs, about the same as it was with Williams. The team with the top rated offense in the league needed secondary help. Sorry, but Billy Mays’s corpse could probably handle that pitch.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
seeing as you're assuming just as much as I am on that point
I’ll stick with my belief
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010
How was 2008 a great year for him?
It absolutely sucked! 38 tackles in 16 games? Under Williams no less!
"They're ready to be like 'Same Old Saints'" - Roman Harper, on each of the New Orleans Saints vanquished foes of 2009
He started every game. If you are a starter, you are the best they have, and you get the lion's share of minutes.
"They're ready to be like 'Same Old Saints'" - Roman Harper, on each of the New Orleans Saints vanquished foes of 2009
Pre-reply
Dunbass, he didn’t start every game. Learn to read a chart!
"They're ready to be like 'Same Old Saints'" - Roman Harper, on each of the New Orleans Saints vanquished foes of 2009
Post Pre-reply
Yeah, well he started 12 games. That’s a lot! He still sucks, and so do you.
"They're ready to be like 'Same Old Saints'" - Roman Harper, on each of the New Orleans Saints vanquished foes of 2009
pre reply
Sorry Hollywoo!, I was thinking about Frenchie for some reason. I think the Dunbass thing threw me. I guess he can still answer though. Unless he’s offended that I think of him as crazy.
Got a good reason
For taking the easy way out, now
Duncan disses Fujita
tweet
jeffduncantp Should happen. Ingram would start at SLB; slight upgrade over Fujita @realheavyd Any word on Ingram deal getting done yet? Starter or depth?
You know the preacher likes the cold
He knows I'm gonna stay
defensive tweet
jeffduncantp Big difference in $$$; not much difference in production @saintscenter Woulda rathered had @ScottFuj and Ingram than Shanle and Ingram
You know the preacher likes the cold
He knows I'm gonna stay
fending off Fujita loyalists left and right
jeffduncantp Post-draft market is tepid, esp for injured role players @AndrewJuge If upgrade, why was he released & not getting interest on open market?
You know the preacher likes the cold
He knows I'm gonna stay
It's ON.........
jeffduncantpDuncan backpedaling furiously, now leaves himself vulnerable to coldpizza rage over Shanle/Fujita position descriptions…Like both. Different players, tho. Fujita SLB, Shanle WLB. Both great guys, quality leaders.@ALEVYWORLD u prefer fujita over shanle?
You know the preacher likes the cold
He knows I'm gonna stay
Got a mass tweet from @saintscenter right after the one from Jeff Duncan
saintscenter
BREAKING NEWS: OLB Clint Ingram deal with the Saints is done, source inside Saints organization says. Financial terms not released yet.
10:45AM ET via Echofon
Guess Jason Beauchamp
can go ahead and change his name to Neauchamp.
Too soon?
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
what am i missing?
Since when did 38 tackles by a 12 game starting LB become a great year?….when was that even considered average? Granted i don’t know the guy or watch many Jacksonville games. But his production hardly looks like something to get hyped about.
That’s actually not much worse than Fujita and Shanle’s numbers, though I’d like to see Jacksonville’s TOP averages before making that comparison. If they held the ball longer than the Saints, it would naturally equate to less tackle opportunities for their defense.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Actually
it’s quite a bit off. By a large margin. Shanle averaged 5.3 tackles per game over the last 4 years, Fujita averaged 5.9. Ingram has only averaged 4.2….and that’s only counted the games he started, i gave him a free pass for games played but didn’t start which would have dropped his average even more. Again…we’re talking paper only…but this guy doesn’t come close to comparing with Fujita or Shanle. I hardly see how anyone can possibly say he steps in as an upgrade over Fujita.
I was talking about last year only:
Fujita 4.3
Shanle 4.0
Inglram 3.5
That’s all within one tackle per game.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
hmm
we’re looking at different stats then. I got fuita at 58 tackles in 11 games, 5.3 avg. Shanle at 69 for 14 for a 4.9. and Ingram at a 4.3. I’m using combined, guessing you’re using solo.
But still, that’s a 1 tackle per game drop at best on the guy he’d be replacing in the starting lineup. A guy who was a good workman linebacker but probably a better leader. It’s a pretty disappointing replacement from where most of us were hoping to be. But let’s be honest, at this point we just don’t know. Guy quite possibly might not even start.
I’m using pro-football-reference.com. They have Fujita with 43 tackles in 10 starts, Shanle 56 in 14, Ingram 42 in 12. And yes, that’s solo. Still a little off, even combined. Oh well.
Tackles aren’t really the best measuring stick, anyway. Maybe if you had number of tackle opportunities or missed tackles, i.e., something to gauge how often they succeed at doing the job they’re supposed to do, when the ball carrier comes their way. I don’t really think anyone is expecting an improvement over Fujita this late in UFA. If that’s what you’re after, you address that position over Alex Brown or Patrick Robinson. And you’re right, it’s just a name in the hat. Who knows which one of these radar blips will ultimately become a torpedo? That’s assuming any of them do.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Where are you getting your 4 year numbers from, btw? There appear to over-inflated across the board.
2006-09:
Shanle 59 starts, 233 tackles, 3.9 avg
Fujita 54 starts, 246 tackles, 4.6 avg
Ingram 46 starts, 156 tackles, 3.4 avg
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
like i said
i think you’re basing on solo, i’m basing on total tackles.
Shanle 60 starts – 322 tackles
Fujita – 56 starts – 330 tackles.
I grabbed mine off the ESPN personnel page. shrug
i also took a peak
at Jacksonville’s TOP averages at that position for their other starters. Needless to say, Ingram was by far the bottom of the barrel compared to Daryl Smith or Justin Durant.
Smith and Durant both played MLB. They’re bound to have more tackles than Ingram.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Smith and Durant are their weakside/strongside OLB’s in their base 4-3 package which they run most of the time. Although i do believe Smith may have been their starting MLB last year, with Ingram and Durant on the outside. Though that changes this year now that they have Morrison on the inside.
I’m showing Durant as their starting MLB last season, Smith the season prior. Just saying that their exposure to the interior position(s) makes the comparison a little skewed. That would be like comparing Shanle or Fujita’s tackle totals to Mark Simoneau’s. They’ve never had the advantage of playing inside.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
You might be right in that. But also to answer your previous question, no i was not looking to get an improvement over Fujita in free agency this late in the game. My comments were in regards to others on the forum who were stating he’s an upgrade over Fujita at the position.
Frankly i’m hoping one of our young linebackers step up and becomes a good/stable player at the position. Time will tell.
You two should have your own blog.
"I can eat oreos faster than him" Scott Fujita's take on Payton Manning SB44
by jeremysherwin on May 18, 2010 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
oh my, from monty python (yesterday) to early SNL weekend update - NICE
We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night. -- GW
by Hans Petersen on May 18, 2010 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions
What about Arnoux?
I’m still wanting to see him play. I think he’ll be good but not great. A solid LB who can play zone coverage well(at least in the youtube video he did), a good tackler, and good against the run. Maybe our SLB is already in the building(ala Payton on a pounding RB last year). No one has said Arnoux’s name except for once. I’m not comfortable with Dunbarr possibly starting if Arnoux doesn’t get the nod though. I’m for competition in TC but assuming that whoever they bring in will automatically be the starter is not a good idea imo. I still have hopes that Arnoux will win the spot and I don’t see why he doesn’t have a shot and has seemed to be written off by most of the ppl on the site as someone who won’t start.
Superbowl bound!!!...I know! do you?! Go Saints!!
by skinnykinney on May 18, 2010 4:34 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
Outta sight, outta mind I guess. He’s been easily forgotten since his injury in the rookie minicamp last year. He’s had a year to fully heal and learn, so I too am hoping for good things from him this season. That’s far from a certainty, but is at least a possibility. Will-Mis-Pay don’t seem all too eager to bring in another LB, so I’m thinking that means they see something in their LBs that we don’t just yet.
"As soon as Tony (Dungy) said we had no chance, I knew we had 'em right where we wanted 'em"--Coach Sean Payton right after Super Bowl XLIV with the Lombardi Trophy firmly in hand. WHO DAT!!
by David "Satch" Kelly on May 18, 2010 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions
position filled!
I believe Jo-Lonn Dunbar will beat out any LB we bring in and he’ll beat out Clint Ingram too! We’re looking for depth, not a starter… Sam Maxwell fits our style best but he’s only a rookie and may have to wait a year… 2010 looks like Shanle/Vilma/Dunbar
by jimfrotch on May 18, 2010 6:54 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
he better play better
than he did last season. he didn’t perform too well whenever i noticed him in the game. that has me a lil worried
Superbowl bound!!!...I know! do you?! Go Saints!!
by skinnykinney on May 19, 2010 2:38 AM CDT up reply actions
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