CSC All-Time Saints Team Election: Tight End
by Dave Cariello on Jun 29, 2010 6:00 AM CDT
in CSC All-Time New Orleans Saints Team
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PrintIt's time now to vote for the next member to be elected to our CSC All-Time Saints team and today it's a tight end. If you missed our tight end nomination post yesterday you can catch it again right here.
Based on your nominations and discussion in yesterdays comment section as well as stats, career with the Saints and my own personal opinion, I have added three players to our ballot:
- Wesley Walls
- Dave Parks
- Jeremy Shockey
The polls are officially open and will remain so for exactly 48 hours which means they will close at 6am on Thursday, July 1st. You only get one vote so make it count. You can make a difference. If you've never voted in a CSC poll to date, now is the perfect time to start. Be sure to tell everyone you know to come on over and vote as well.
As always, the comment section is open for more discussion about these great players and the way things used to be.
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I can't believe you people are voting for Shockey
Childs and Brenner were much more productive for the Saints historically. Quit voting for Shockey! 3 injury riddled seasons does not qualify you for the all time team. Is he good? Yes. Was he better in his SAINTS CAREER than Childs? Not even close.
by Andrew Juge on Jun 29, 2010 8:16 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I didn't vote for him
But I can see why people are. He may have the best career of any TE that has played for the Saints. That includes years that he wasn’t in a Saints uniform though. If you look at Shockey’s career as a whole, he has more receiving yards than Childs and Brenner, and more pro-bowls than the two of them combined. And don’t underestimate that Super Bowl ring.
That being said, I think contribution as a New Orleans Saint should be a very big factor in this, and my vote is for Childs. Henry Childs was before my time, and probably before the time of a lot of the voters on here, so Brenner will probably win on name recognition alone, but if you look at the stats you have to go Henry Childs as the better TE.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
Childs is the only one of these players in the Saints HOF.
Snap, place, kick! And it's good! It's good! It's goo-hoo-hood! Pigs have flown! Hell Has frozen over! The Saints are going to the Superbowl!
by Joseph William Stern on Jul 1, 2010 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions
I total agree.
Shockey should not even be on the list at this time. This may be his last year in a Saints uniform. Childs and Brenner has meant more to this team than the injury prone Shockey.
although i would normally not have voted for shockey i did.
dude caught the winning td in a super bowl win. only reason i voted for him.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league, Drew Brees.''
-- Sean Payton
by DeuceisLoose926 on Jun 29, 2010 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
So if generic “insert guy off practice squad here” had caught the winning TD, he would have been the greatest all time at his position for the Saints? Wow…such wonderful criteria.
Hoby
Even though CP almost convince me to vote for Childs, my heart told me Hoby. Think it has more to do with when I started watching the Saints and less about production. I remember his 1st year as a Saint and watched him for over a decade. For me, he’s a fixture when I think of Saints and TE. Even though I love Shockey’s passion, 2 years are not enough to earn all-Time TE in my opinion.
by Ponysaints on Jun 29, 2010 8:22 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
c'mon brenner
I love it when a plan comes together! -Hannibal
by DrewBreesManCrush on Jun 29, 2010 8:41 AM CDT reply actions
I voted for Brenner, but
I really hope one day we have a true Superstar at that position because I would like to feel like I did when voting for LBs- now there was some HUGE talent to select from.
"I think we agree, the past is over" - George W Bush
"The greatest enemy of knowlege is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge" Stephen Hawking
Shockey getting a lot of votes doesn’t surprise me. Shockey getting twice as many as Walls, who was just as good career wise AND had a better two seasons as a Saint, does.
Kind of figured this as the two-horse race it’s shaping up to be. Is it even possible to have a player that pre-dates the Jim Mora era on the All-Time team? That seems to contradict the spirit of the exercise, imo.
Hopefully there’ll be two more before it’s all over with, as both Derland Moore and Tommy Myers belong. Of course, if Darren Sharper appears on the ballot, there goes half the votes based on one season.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Waymer’s the other CB, imo. Both he and Myers are more deserving than any other DB.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
In rounding out the team, my voting will likely go:
QB – Brees
RB – McAllister (though I’d have no problem with Rogers)
TE – Childs
OG – Dobler (though I’d have no problem with Kupp)
DT – Moore
CB – Waymer (I actually think Massey and McKenzie were both better cover corners, but you have to respect the tenure)
FS – Myers (though I’ll be surprised if Sharper doesn’t win in a landslide, judging from the Shockey tally above)
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
I would like to think Dave would have the foresight to not allow a 1 year player on the All Time Great Saints ballot. This is supposedly about the great Saints players in history, not the All Time Great Merc. team.
I already brought that up. In particular, because we started this process before Sharper was even a Saint, thereby giving he — as well as any other 2009 player — the advantage of another year on their resume, when other positions have already been nailed down based on “through 08” stats. In that light, Shockey shouldn’t even be on this ballot. Greer and Porter shouldn’t be nominees for CB. Jahri Evans is debatable. We should have finished this thing out last offseason, to get the snapshot representation these teams are supposed to carry.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Just because he's on the ballot, doesn't mean he gets selected to the all-time team...
If you have a problem with someone like that getting selected, than you have a problem with thousands of Saints fans, not myself. My goal is to give everyone a reasonable chance. Y’alls goal is to choose the right man for the job.
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by Dave Cariello on Jun 29, 2010 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Those would be some solid posts, CP!
Shockey is probably mostly getting votes from the younger members of our community, who are likely saying “Hoby and Henry who?”
"The Saints made the right decision signing Drew Brees-not just in terms of his arm, but because of his heart and mind." - Marshall Faulk
by SaintsFanMD on Jun 29, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Meant "votes," not posts!
"The Saints made the right decision signing Drew Brees-not just in terms of his arm, but because of his heart and mind." - Marshall Faulk
by SaintsFanMD on Jun 29, 2010 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions
I think it goes back to career vs. career in New Orleans. If we are voting on career, then Sharper is the best FS to wear a Saints uniform. If we are going with career in New Orleans, then Myers contributed the most to the Saints organization.
Whichever method you use, I think you are right that Waymer beats out McKenzie and Massey.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
by VAsaintsfan on Jun 29, 2010 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
One more thing to consider
If we are basing this on a player’s total career, we will have to throw Ken Stabler into the quarterback discussion. Not that I think he would beat out Brees, but I just don’t think its a discussion any of us want to have.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
by VAsaintsfan on Jun 29, 2010 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Waymer only played FS one season for the Saints and made the Pro Bowl as a CB. It would make no sense to lump him in with the FSs, where either Myers or Sharper would bring more to the table than any remaining CB.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Though again, if you’re going off overall careers, both Ashley Ambrose and Carl Lee enter the CB equation. No Ken Burrough, Haywood Jeffires or Jake Reed amongst the WR nominees, yet Shockey skates into the TE fray based on his reputation as a Giant. Plenty of double standards on display here throughout.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Aren't you
Showing a double standard by voting Childs as TE over Brenner because of stats instead of tenure and now Waymer for tenure over the other 2 corners you mentioned were better stat wise.
by cbkao on Jun 29, 2010 1:13 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I didn’t say they were better stat wise. I said they were better cover corners, imo. As in skill sets. Waymer trumps both in career INTs by a considerable margin. I also didn’t say I completely ignore tenure. Why did I extrapolate Childs’s statistics in the other thread? To offset Brenner’s tenure. In doing so, I took that tenure into account. That is, in terms of potential productivity. There’s nothing magical about being on a team and not producing. Do you ever hear George Blanda being mentioned as an all-time great QB or K? The guy played forever, surely that has to count for something. And it does. It counts towards longetivity records. It doesn’t, however, make him a prolific -what I consider the definition of “great” (or in this case “better” as neither Childs nor Brenner are anything close to “great”) - player. Was it a double standard when Jerry Fontenot beat out John Hill for the center spot, when Hill had a much longer tenure with the Saints? In that case you had absolutely ZERO statistics to support your choice, other than Pro Bowls. If BOTH talent AND tenure were being taken into account (which is what I’m suggesting), I find it hard to believe that anyone who saw both play considers Fontenot THAT much better than Hill (to offset the difference in tenure). And that’s what I’m getting at. In the case of McKenzie versus Waymer for example, neither are future HOFers. It’s not a slam dunk either way. I’m going with tenure + statistics over sheer talent, in that case. Childs versus Brenner, again neither are sniffing Canton and Brenner truly has nothing on Childs, but cumulative totals. And even those don’t weigh out, when you break it down/
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
i'd like to vote for
Irv Smith…just to be different lol.
"These two teams just should not play each other" ...John Madden during a 1991 Saints-Eagles game
It should be noted that Pro Football Digest named Henry Childs as the starting TE of their All-Time Saints team in 2002.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Unfortunately people tend to vote for who they enjoyed watching play more than who is more deserving of a spot. That and the “homer come latelys” will aways vote for the cool and flashy, hence the Shockey votes. As much fun as it is to vote for these things, to get a true deserving list you would have to pick 4-5 incredibly knowledgeable people to debate it out to keep the less informed (and frankly occasionally moronic) from skewing votes.
If you’re curious, i voted for Childs. I love Hoby, but Childs is much more deserving.
hmmmm looky here @ 40th anniversary team has brenner. The players are chosen in a vote by the Hall of Fame media selection committee, which includes local and regional media members who cover the Saints now or did so in the past.
I voted for Hoby,
But I certainly understand the closeness between him and Henry Childs. I was around to see them both playing, and to be honest I only went with Hoby due to my own personal preference. If I had to debate the merits of one or the other on skills etc they are honestly pretty closely matched.
"The Saints made the right decision signing Drew Brees-not just in terms of his arm, but because of his heart and mind." - Marshall Faulk
I’ve mentioned this before …
I think we need to add a four positions to this team: kicker, punter, returns specialist and head coach. I’d be ok with a special teams ace and a long snapper also, though I wouldn’t consider either paramount.
Kicker would be a slam dunk, imo.
Punter would be competitive.
Returns specialist would be insane. Compared to other NFL teams, this is our biggest historical strength, imo.
The proposed ballot:
John Gilliam
Rich Mauti
Mel Gray
Tyrone Hughes
Michael Lewis
Reggie Bush
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
by coldpizza on Jun 29, 2010 10:59 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Kicker, Punter should be a given. I’d replace returns specialist with a more generic special teams specialist. We’ve had a few great special team demons in our time that didn’t necessarily return kicks.
reggie bush made your short list
was that a compliment to bush?!??!
i would agree with adding a special teamer (it is a probowl spot)
I love it when a plan comes together! -Hannibal
by DrewBreesManCrush on Jun 29, 2010 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
please can we add head coach to the ballot??
I can’t wait to watch CP’s head explode when Payton wins
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010
I think that's a good idea!
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by Dave Cariello on Jun 29, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
What, CP's head exploding?
Fat, dumb, and happy. Hell, two out of three ain't bad!
I Want To Die In My Sleep Like My Grandpa – Not Screaming and Yelling Like His Passengers.
by Just 'Nother Day on Jun 29, 2010 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Or if we are voting on a coach's entire career....
Ditka would be pretty high in the running. Or how about Hank Stram? He is a legend, but that’s in spite of his tenure in New Orleans, not because of it. Pretty sure either of those options would make CPs head explode just as quickly as Payton would.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
I consider Stram the best coach the Saints have ever had based on his entire career, and that’s how I’d be voting. He’s in the HOF as a head coach. Ditka isn’t and I doubt Payton ever will be. Payton does have the best single season to his credit, however. That holds about as much water as Sharper’s best single season as a FS, imo. He’s 2-1-1, in terms of winning seasons. That’s not exactly tried and true, despite the SB win.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
so that means you will be voting for sharper too, right? since he had a hall of fame career before he got here, and unlike stram was actually successful here.
I love it when a plan comes together! -Hannibal
by DrewBreesManCrush on Jun 29, 2010 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions
To be honest, I’d probably vote for Mora. Longetivity + success + several firsts. Stram’s still the best based on a career, though.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Put it this way … if this was a real team and I wanted a coach to lead them in his heyday, which is what I’m assuming we’re basing all selections on (peak performance), then it would definitely be Stram.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
i would take payton
assuming we have a halfway decent def coord (id ask mora sr. if he’d like the job)
I love it when a plan comes together! -Hannibal
by DrewBreesManCrush on Jun 29, 2010 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Gotta go with Mora based on what you said. Longevity, success, he had it all in his tenure and did it all pre-free agency for the most part. If it wasn’t for him and his Philly Stars connection, we never would have got Sam Mills.
biggest knock against mora
post season record
saints all time
mora 0-4 .000 0-6 .000
payton 4-1 .800 4-1 .800
stram 0-0 .000 5-3 .625
just saying.
I love it when a plan comes together! -Hannibal
by DrewBreesManCrush on Jun 29, 2010 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Won’t disagree with the knock. But taking a team that was historically one of the worst in all professional sports and making them contenders and winners pre-free agency should more than trump his post season record. You can’t have everything.
Mora was also wasn’t a protege of another great coach.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Came in to the NFL under Jack Patera, NFL Coach of the Year in 1978. He must have learned something in all those years.
War has caused unrest
Within the younger generation
Induction then destruction
Who wants to die?
Mora took three straight teams to the playoffs and also had three straight winning seasons. Payton has strung together two of either, as of yet.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
But SP has brought two teams to NFC Championship games—in three seasons—something no other Saints coach has even come close to doing. But I do agree with the career argument….let me put it this way, while I think SP is the better coach, I easily see your argument. However, I think that even you must admit that if SP is the Saints coach for 5 more years and keeps the team as competitive as they’ve been between 06 and 09, then there’s no argument.
by Andrew Tessier on Jun 29, 2010 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Payton may very well have a HOF career. If he can steer this season to success instead of making ESPN and Ellen show appearances, I think he might.
They say we must fight to keep our freedom
But Lord knows there's got to be a better way
i think it would be hard to argue for anyone
besides sp and mora… even so, sp will probably win in a landslide
I love it when a plan comes together! -Hannibal
by DrewBreesManCrush on Jun 29, 2010 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions
By the way, I voted Hoby
CP almost convinced me to vote Childs but not quite. Perhaps it was the mustache
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010
I voted Hoby...
And it was actually BECAUSE of CP posting their years of service and stats, including comparable QB stats.
Thanks CP.
"Do not anticipate trouble or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. " ~Benjamin Franklin
Dave, do we keep official stats for most self-replies in one post?
I think CP has to be going for the record (or perhaps trying to best his own?)
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010
it's a preemptive reply and I have the patent pending
CP was assistant coach under me when I won CSC poster of the year 2009 (self awarded).
War has caused unrest
Within the younger generation
Induction then destruction
Who wants to die?
Good job, stujo4. You are awesome at a Shockey-esque level in your own head.
War has caused unrest
Within the younger generation
Induction then destruction
Who wants to die?
it's quantity, not quality
We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night. -- GW
by Hans Petersen on Jul 1, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
So the Shockey voters can pull their heads out of their a** es and vote for the NEXT most recent nominee? I see no point in that.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Agreed. But at the same time CP, apparently you and I need to accept the fact that apparently no Saints player existed before 1984. That and apparently what happened yesterday will always be better than what happened 10 years ago.
1992 is the apparent line of demarcation. So basically, you can rule out Myers, Moore and Dobler/Kupp. Those spots will be filled by Sharper, Wilks and Evans/Turley. To push for anyone prior to that would be as ludicrous ludacris (sorry, outdated spellcheck) as maintaining that Johnny Unitas and Otto Graham are still Top 10 all-time QBs. Or that John Lennon wrote better songs than Kurt Cobain. Grandpa, please.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
So I guess it's official:
Fat, dumb, and happy. Hell, two out of three ain't bad!
I Want To Die In My Sleep Like My Grandpa – Not Screaming and Yelling Like His Passengers.
by Just 'Nother Day on Jun 30, 2010 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions
I call for a runoff! No player has a majority!
Snap, place, kick! And it's good! It's good! It's goo-hoo-hood! Pigs have flown! Hell Has frozen over! The Saints are going to the Superbowl!
by Joseph William Stern on Jun 30, 2010 1:21 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
A little something for the also rans:
Try not to get any caramel in your pornstache, Hoby.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Close race, but there is a clear winner, end of story. I like both Brenner and Childs and would have no problem with either one of them winning. Regardless of whether the person you voted for won or not, the fact is someone who is truly worthy got the victory. I voted for Childs, but if Hoby won the last thing I’d do would be to cry for a runoff.
As Dave said and CP pointed out, one vote so make it count. We did just that, congrats to Childs.
oops
forgot to vote
We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night. -- GW
pre-reply
I can’t even look at myself in the mirror
We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night. -- GW
by Hans Petersen on Jul 1, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions
suppose someone voted 3x for Childs from different computers with different screen names?
"I think we agree, the past is over" - George W Bush
"The greatest enemy of knowlege is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge" Stephen Hawking
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