CSC All-Time Saints Team Election: Guard No. 2
by Dave Cariello on Jul 12, 2010 6:01 AM CDT
in CSC All-Time New Orleans Saints Team
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PrintIt's time now to vote for the next member to be elected to our CSC All-Time Saints team and today it's a second offensive guard. If you missed our nomination post yesterday you can catch it again right here.
Based on your nominations and discussion in yesterday's comment section, here is how the ballot has changed:
Dropped
- Kyle Turley
- Joel Hilgenberg
- LeCharles Bently
- Steve Korte
Added
- Brad Edelman
The polls are officially open and will remain so for exactly 48 hours which means they will close at 6am on Wednesday, July 14th. You only get one vote so make it count. You can make a difference. If you've never voted in a CSC poll to date, now is the perfect time to start. Be sure to tell everyone you know to come on over and vote as well.
As always, the comment section is open for more discussion about these great players and the way things used to be.
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Conrad Dobler is my favorite of this group and is someone I consider to be an eventual HOFer. That being said, I voted for Jake Kupp. I started attending Saint games in 1974 and quite honestly, I don’t remember a thing about this guy. My dad has spoken highly of him, however. He’s a member of the Saints Hall of Fame and has been named to the Saints all-time team on numerous occasions. Being recognized as a Pro Bowl talent on a team as bad as the Saints 1969 squad carries more weight in my mind, than being hand picked off a Super Bowl winning team. Playing 8 1/2 years, bridging the gap between the inaugural team and the Stram era, Kupp obviously paid his dues. I like Evans a lot , but does he even stand head and shoulders above Carl Nicks on the same OL? What Saints offensive lineman — not just guard, mind you, but offensive lineman in general — from that early era can even be mentioned in the same breath as Jake Kupp? Also, I feel as though historical representation should factor into this whole process somewhere and Danny Abramowicz is already on the outside looking in. To not have ANY players on this all-time team from those ever-so-lean years just doesn’t sit well with me. At least, not when the two most worthy candidates otherwise haven’t played anywhere close to the same number of games combined.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
by coldpizza on Jul 12, 2010 8:15 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Kupp has my vote
I feel as though historical representation should factor into this whole process somewhere
Couldn’t agree more, and I have trouble voting an active player to an all-time team.
Who dat, from a cajun exiled to cowboy country.
by alcoholic_insight on Jul 12, 2010 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Maybe if they’re nearing the end of their career, they’re head and shoulders above their peers and none of the guys they’re up against were. In terms of a Saints career, we really don’t have anyone that fits that description on the current roster, outside of Brees (9 years exceeds the average career of an NFL QB).
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
its hard to vote for somebody i have never heard of
im sure that 95% of csc have never heard of these guys either. it is sad to say, but nobody was writing books about the 1974 saints. ol is a position where its hard to quantify solid production with stats too. pizza, i agree with your statement about jahri not being head and shoulders above nicks, but i think that statement reflects on how good nicks is and not how overrated jahri is. the team showed how valuable he is by breaking the bank in a year where they wont pay anybody else a dime. 1st team all-pro’s dont come around here very often.
I love it when a plan comes together! -Hannibal
by DrewBreesManCrush on Jul 12, 2010 9:33 AM CDT reply actions
“but i think that statement reflects on how good nicks is and not how overrated jahri is.”
It doesn’t really matter WHY it is, just that it is. Players from different eras shouldn’t be compared directly with one another, but rather on how they stack(ed) up to their peers at the time. That’s why guys like Jim Thorpe and Red Grange are still revered as some of the greatest athletes of all time. It’s not that they were better than Reggie Bush or anyone else of the modern era. It’s because they was a bigger disparity between their talents and the talents of the average athlete at the time, than there is between Reggie Bush (or whoever) and the average athlete of today.
“1st team all-pro’s dont come around here very often.”
This is true, but guards that play 8 1/2 seasons don’t come around very often either. If Evans blows out a knee this season, like LeCharles Bentley did early in his career, is his career really any more impressive than Kupp’s? Granted, if healthy, his fine play is likely to continue. That’s an assumption, though. That’s why I never like to judge an incomplete body of work. If Evans’s career ended today (and it could), he’s not the best (or even 2nd best) guard we’ve ever had, imo. Now, if he starts having All-Pro seasons without another Pro Bowler (Stinchcomb) lined up next to him, then I’ll begin to see him as a stalwart among his peers. As of now, I’d guess his reputation (as well as the reputation of his peers) have more to do with Brees’s quick release, more than their own individual talents. The running game (at least through the 2008 season) hasn’t been anything special and Evans has been a buzz name up-and-comer for a couple of years now, at least.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Players from different eras shouldn’t be compared directly with one another, but rather on how they stack(ed) up to their peers at the time.
I’m not comparing different eras, but Jahri Evans is considered one of, if not the best guards in the game today. None of the other guys on this list fit that bill. I can’t say that Dobler, Edelman, or Kupp were ever thought of as the best at their position while they played.
Peyton, I can eat Oreos faster than you!!!!
Believe me, Evans is definetly not overated from what I see. Nicks is just a damn good guard as well.
Conrad Dobler was mean but meaner when he played with the cast on his forearm. He really used to take advantage of using it and got away with it.
Do you honestly believe that Jammal Brown, Jahri Evans and Jon Stinchcomb would have all made the Pro Bowl by this point in their careers, if they were playing in front of JaMarcus Russell? Most offensive linemen (interior ones in particular) are recognized for either their longetivity or the exemplary play of their QB. That’s what sets them apart in the eyes of the fans. Once they develop that reputation, they live on it. As good as Willie Roaf was, you can’t convince me that he didn’t make several Pro Bowls in KC based on his name. I also don’t think anyone would know who Jeff Saturday was, if he wasn’t Peyton Manning’s center. Working flawlessly through all those audibles is what sets him apart. It’s something any center in the league could likely handle, if exposed to it. If you think Jake Kupp made the Pro Bowl based on Billy Kilmer’s laser-tight spirals or the overwhelming media attention that a 5-9 campaign stirs up, you’re delusional.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
“Believe me, Evans is definetly not overated from what I see. Nicks is just a damn good guard as well.”
I don’t disagree with this, btw. Still, Nicks is a peer of Evans and two years in, he’s already playing roughly up to par with the supposed best we’ve ever had? Over a 43 year stretch? What are the odds of this transpiring, if Billy Kilmer was under center today? Do you think Nicks and Evans would still be getting lavished with praise, and/or being cited as two of the best young OGs in the league? I honestly don’t think anyone outside of the Saints coaching staff and fan base (or what remained of it) would even know who they are.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
“I don’t disagree with this, btw.”
This being that they’re both damn good guards. I do think they’re both overrated to an extent, though. It’s called playing in a quick strike offense, in front of an exceptional QB that doesn’t take a lot of sacks. Overrated doesn’t equate to bad, just (possibly) not as good as the masses make them out to be.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
For illustrative purposes, this would be comparable to saying the Electric Company was probably overrated as run blocking linemen, because the Bills ran the ball so friggin often with O.J. Simpson in the backfield. It has nothing to do with how good they were at the task they were called upon to do. It’s more along the lines of “wouldn’t MOST linemen of that era have made a name for themselves, had they played in that style offense, blocking for a back that talented and often used?” Again, it’s no knock. I just don’t view anything on the 1969 Saints offense as inherently geared towards OL recognition and Kupp hobbled away with it anyway.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
I think they would be lavished with praise...
Look at the average weight of the players back then to now. Their size would overwhelm the players of that by gone era. And its not just the weight, they move as good as if not better than the athletes that came before them.
"We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night." -- Greg Williams
a.) I said “What are the odds of this transpiring, if Billy Kilmer was under center today? Do you think Nicks and Evans would still be getting lavished with praise, and/or being cited as two of the best young OGs in the league?”
I’m talking about 2009 (or 2010), with an extremely mediocre 30 year old QB, with zero mobility, that throws wounded duck spirals.
b.) Even if I did mean it the other way around, Evans and Nicks wouldn’t be as big or move as well in that era, as they do today. Nor would most professional athletes. What you’re seeing is the results of advancements in dietary supplements, weight training, equipment, etc., along with the natural advancement of the human species. If they were brought along without those advantages all along, they wouldn’t stand out to the extent of simply juxtaposing the players via a time machine, for example.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Oh, my bad....
(in best Rosann Rosannadanna voice) Nevermind
"We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night." -- Greg Williams
Gilda Radner anyway
It just goes to show ya, if its not one thing its another.
"We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night." -- Greg Williams
Voted for Kupp, in my opinion hands down our best. In another 4-5 years…Jahri would probably be there. But absolutely not after only 4 years.
I actually
Agree with Jeff and cp on this one. Kupp deserves it now. Jahri most likely is on pace to become one of our all time greats but we should consider that his future is not guaranteed. At this point in his career he may be physically better than Kupp ever was but we should consider Kupp’s 8 plus years of service. And just think of this, off the top of your head how many Tampa Bay Bucs made the pro bowl this year? The Saints of that era were compatible to them and Kupp did make the pro bowl as a member of them. That should speak volumes of his play since usually players from the leagues worst don’t make it.
by cbkao on Jul 12, 2010 12:25 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
guard no 2
how u gonna drop turley by far he was one of the best guards to ever play and a loyal team mate i loved when he came out the pile with that jets helmet n threw it ill never forget it geaux saints in 2010
by rob leffingwell on Jul 12, 2010 11:27 AM CDT reply actions
Brad Edelman
With him as guard Saints had George Rogers, Rueben Mayes, and Dalton Hilliard each get +1,000 yards rushing. Here’s a short video of Brad now.
Jahri Evans
Entering the 2006 NFL Draft, Evans was seen as a developmental prospect and was projected to move from tackle to guard in the NFL. Although he was evaluated as an early seventh round pick by Sports Illustrated, Evans was selected in the fourth round (108th overall) by the Saints, after they had traded their early fourth-round pick in the draft to the Philadelphia Eagles for veteran defensive tackle Hollis Thomas and the Eagles’ mid-fourth-round pick. (The Eagles then used the pick they acquired from the Saints to draft a different guard, Max Jean-Gilles.
Voted for Kupp. Never saw him play, but read some positive opinions from posters I respect, and that’s good enough for me.
On another sports team’s internet forum, when voting for the all-time team, various posters volunteered to write-up of each nominees career, which were all presented with the voting options. I know it’s pretty late to do that on CSC, but it was instrumental in getting older players the votes they deserved.
If I am good I could add years to my life / I would rather add some life to my years.
yea a little late but a good idea none the less
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
Where were you a year ago!?!?!
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by Dave Cariello on Jul 13, 2010 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Still figuring out the rules of NFL games!
If I am good I could add years to my life / I would rather add some life to my years.
Remember that rule you learned about overtime?
Forget it!
Fat, dumb, and happy. Hell, two out of three ain't bad!
I Want To Die In My Sleep Like My Grandpa – Not Screaming and Yelling Like His Passengers.
by Just 'Nother Day on Jul 13, 2010 11:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Games can end in ties?!
If I am good I could add years to my life / I would rather add some life to my years.
They usually take their ties off midway through the 1st quarter. Just too darn hot.
(Am I helping at all with your study of the rules?)
You’re welcome.
Fat, dumb, and happy. Hell, two out of three ain't bad!
I Want To Die In My Sleep Like My Grandpa – Not Screaming and Yelling Like His Passengers.
by Just 'Nother Day on Jul 14, 2010 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions
So in Greenbay in Dec. we can have two ties (it's awfully cold)?
damn these rules are too confusing.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
Really close race between Edelman and Kupp
Will become even more important once we ignore all the votes for Evans.
they are just voting the way they think.
let it ride dude.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Benjamin Franklin
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