CSC All-Time Saints Team Nominations: Cornerback No. 2
by Dave Cariello on Jul 5, 2010 6:00 AM CDT
in CSC All-Time New Orleans Saints Team
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PrintWe've got another position to fill on our All-Time Saints roster and this week, we're returning to the cornerback spot. Our veteran members will recall that they chose Eric Allen as the first starting corner for the team. To refresh your memory, click here.
To start things off this week, I've nominated every other cornerback remaining from that election. Their basic info can be found after the jump. If you think any other player(s) should be included in tomorrows election, nominate them in the comment section and explain why.
I was very happy with the member participation last week, significantly higher than last summer. Hopefully that continues.
The poll will open at 6am Central tomorrow morning and will be open for exactly 48 hours, ending on Thursday, July 8th.
I now open it up for any other nominations or players that you just can't believe I missed. There very well may be a glaring omission. Talk it out in the comment section. I would also love to hear some personal rumination from our readers who've actually watched these guys play. Remember, this isn't just about choosing a player but allowing readers to share their memories of these players and educating those of us who never had a chance to see them.
Dave Whitsell
Height: 6'0"
Weight: 189
D.O.B.: 6/14/1936
College: Indiana
NFL Experience: 12 Seasons
Seasons with Saints: 1967-1969
Notables: 1967 Pro-Bowler selection
Johnnie Poe
Height: 6'1"
Weight: 190
D.O.B.: 8/29/1959
College: Missouri
NFL Experience: 7 Seasons
Seasons with Saints: 1981-1987
Notables: 1983 All-Pro selection. Played entire career with Saints.
Ernie Jackson
Height: 5'10"
Weight: 173
D.O.B.: 4/11/1950
College: Duke
NFL Experience: 8 Seasons
Seasons with Saints: 1972-1977
Notables: ---
Height: 6'0"
Weight: 194
D.O.B.: 4/26/1976
College: Memphis
NFL Experience: 12 Seasons
Seasons with Saints: 2004-2009
Notables: ---
Dave Waymer
Height: 6'1"
Weight: 195
D.O.B.: 7/1/1958
College: Notre Dame
NFL Experience: 12 Seasons
Seasons with Saints: 1980-1989
Notables: 1987 Pro-Bowl selection.
Toi Cook
Height: 5'11"
Weight: 188
D.O.B.: 12/3/1964
College: Stanford
NFL Experience: 11 Seasons
Seasons with Saints: 1987-1993
Notables: ---
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Where is Porter??
Sheesh…“the single biggest play in Saints history” should not guarantee a player a nomination for a position on an All-Time team roster! Don’t get me wrong—I like Porter and in fact I have his jersey. But the man has played in 17 games over 2 seasons!! Let him put up a few more years of solid performance for the Saints and then we’ll talk.
There are many variables that can have an affect on any single play, or even on a player’s performance over a season. Consistency over time; however, is hard to argue with Grasshopper…
"It's about time that something good like this happened." - Drew Brees
Dave Waymer was a free safety, no?
I know Waymer started as a corner but he made his name as a safety. Also, I demand Toi “Toast Cooked” get removed because he sucked very badly. I thought Whitsell was a safety too but I could be wrong.
I second the motion for his removal.
I have numerous memories of his suckitude back in the day. I’m sure that he also made his share of plays, but when you are beaten so badly it stands out!
"It's about time that something good like this happened." - Drew Brees
I think the late Dave Whitsell may have played some at both spots.
Can’t deny his outstanding year in 1967, though. 10 picks in only 14 games—amazing!!
"It's about time that something good like this happened." - Drew Brees
“I know Waymer started as a corner but he made his name as a safety.”
Not with the Saints he didn’t. He only played one season as a safety for the Saints. And the only time he ever made the Pro Bowl (1987) was as a CB.
I second the Massey nomination. Best cover corner we ever had, including the current lot. I also feel as though Clarence Chapman and Fred Thomas are just as deserving as either Poe or Cook, in terms of overall talent. In layman’s terms, none of them were worth a crap. They just happened to stick around a while.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
A solid list of choices, Dave
About the only one I MIGHT add would be Robert Massey, although he only played for the Saints for two seasons. I recall he made a number of interceptions in his rookie year with us, and made the Pro Bowl with the Cardinals in 1992. He was a solid cover corner with good skills, but had only an 8 or 9 year career from the late 1980s into the 1990s.
While he could be a possible addition, I couldn’t see anyone beating either of the first two, Whitsell or Poe, based on their combined skill level and performance with the Saints.
"It's about time that something good like this happened." - Drew Brees
Poor choices
wait a season or two and everyone will have no trouble electing Greer or Porter. It’s prognostication, but these dudes listed here won’t hold a candle to the current guys we have.
And why haven’t we already installed Brees as the qb? There’s really no debate there.
by LSUJOSHUA on Jul 5, 2010 8:50 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Oh but there will be debate over Brees vs. Manning
I’m with you, though. I love Archie and I hate that he had to play with very little help around him, but Brees will get my vote. I expect Dave is saving QB for last. There will be plenty of debate when it happens, but we should save that for the QB discussion. As for CB, I admit I can’t remember much about these listed other than McKenzie, so I guess I’ll go with him. I’m open to being schooled on any of the other guys if someone thinks one of them is more deserving.
"As soon as Tony (Dungy) said we had no chance, I knew we had 'em right where we wanted 'em"--Coach Sean Payton right after Super Bowl XLIV with the Lombardi Trophy firmly in hand. WHO DAT!!
by David "Satch" Kelly on Jul 5, 2010 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh, I agree
That Greer and Porter show great promise and likely have better skill sets than any of these nominees. I wonder how we will work that out? Any idea if we will revisit these choices over time, Dave, or are you planning on making us stand by our choices? And Brees has already performed better than any other Saints quarterback in team history over a 4-year period, so he has proven himself worthy of consideration in my humble opinion.
"It's about time that something good like this happened." - Drew Brees
I'd have to go with Waymer
and Tommy Myers goes up as a Safety, right?
We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night. -- GW
A little confused about Johnnie Poe
Johnnie Poe
Height: 6’1"
Weight: 190
D.O.B.: 8/29/1959
College: Missouri
NFL Experience: 11 Seasons
Seasons with Saints: 1981-1987
Notables: 1983 All-Pro selection. Played entire career with Saints.
Something just doesn’t add up here. Check my math
Peyton, I can eat Oreos faster than you!!!!
I think I said this during the last election
but the names on this list just show how piss-poor this position has been for the Saints over the years and reinforces how our current secondary is BY FAR the best we’ve ever had.
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010
As a collective group, I would agree with you. Definitely not individually. And definitely not based on what they’ve accomplished with the Saints.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
I know you'll argue
but I’d take either of our two starting CBs over just about any other CB we’ve ever had. Now, this is an “all-time team” selection, so longevity and accomplishments with the Saints have to be factored in. I’m not going to say that Tracy Porter should be one of the all-time Saints CBs at this point in his career BUT it would be hard to argue that we’ve had a CB with bigger accomplishments.
Johnnie Poe and Dave Waymer were not good CBs. I’m not sure either of them could have held Greer or Porter’s jock at any point in their careers.
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010
by SaintBevo on Jul 5, 2010 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I will have to go with Johnny Poe
I remember him making some big plays against the 49ers. But also remember him getting burnt.
"We've got 27 ways to add up to 11 (players on the field). I came up with another one last night." -- Greg Williams
They all got burnt occassionally.
Heck, our current guys get burnt on occasion; just not very often. I guess that’s the nature of the beast in today’s NFL.
"It's about time that something good like this happened." - Drew Brees
I have to go with Waymer, even though McKenzie was slightly better in man-on-man coverage, and considerably better in run support. His tenure and leadership are too notable to go unrecognized. Massey would be third, if included. Whitsell, if not. He was a one year wonder at CB for the Saints and deserves to be on this team about as much as Darren Sharper does. That being said, he outperformed every CB we’ve ever had in that one season, and with far less talent (read: pass rush) to work with.
P.S. Johnnie Poe never made the Pro Bowl. I don’t know where you’re getting this stuff, Dave.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Sorry, it says All-Pro, not Pro Bowl. He was never that either. Maybe you’re thinking of the song “Angry Johnny” by Poe, which reached #60 on the Billboard charts in 1996.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
This might not count,
but it might be involved in the All-Pro citing: on the official Saints website, under History, then under All Pro-All Rookie Teams, for 1983 Poe is “All-Pro 2nd Team (Newspaper Enterprize Assoc.).” Again, I don’t know if that counts.
"Dang! The Saints won the Super Bowl!" - my wife, Meso "Happy" Hu Dat.
Fixed the 11 seasons thing...
that was a type.
The All-Pro stat comes from Pro-Football-Reference…http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PoexJo20.htm
Wanna say something? Sign up! It's free!
by Dave Cariello on Jul 5, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
UPI: 1st team all-conference.
Newspaper Ent. Assoc.: 2nd team All-NFL.
Ok, neither one of those are All-Pro. All-Pro teams don’t recognize conferences. And I don’t recognize “Newspaper Ent. Assoc.”. Literally. As in … wtf is that?
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Beats the hell out of me.
Wanna say something? Sign up! It's free!
by Dave Cariello on Jul 5, 2010 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
He did have a pretty good season that year. I guess I can see him gathering some votes based off 7 INTs.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
I’d like to nominate whoever the two DBs were that tipped Steve Bartkowski’s Big Ben pass. Pretty sure Chapman was one of them. I remember my dad trying so hard to keep his composure … then getting to the car, only to discover someone had keyed it. I’m just glad I had the good sense not to laugh that afternoon, or I might not be alive today.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Mckenzie
Not only was our best corner but he stepped up when we signed him last year
World Champions at last
by mississippisaintsfan on Jul 5, 2010 2:20 PM CDT reply actions
Mac 34 for me
he’s the most talented. Good tackler too. My early game memories started about 70/71 so i’d second Ernie Jackson, the rest are warm bodies and bad memories, Whitsell’s 10 picks in 14 games was, wow, especially when you’re like 60.
You think you know, and you don't know, and you never, ever will.-Jim Mora Sr.
didnt vince buck play corner?
he played 91-95 and had 10 int’s
"These two teams just should not play each other" ...John Madden during a 1991 Saints-Eagles game
he also
returned punts his first few seasons
"These two teams just should not play each other" ...John Madden during a 1991 Saints-Eagles game
ALL-TIME CORNER BACK????
I know im gonna catch a bunch of flak for this… and i will deserve it… The saints have never had any decent corner backs, muchless the sort that would garner up any imagery of great CB play. Although i did not take part in the vote for CB1, i cannot understand how a guy like Eric Allen gets the nod for his two years of service. I think it is fair to say that his best years were as a Philadelphia Eagle. I think if we are being honest with ourselves we have to seriously consider leaving these spots open or add guys like tracy porter to it….he’splayed for the team for two years!
No, he hasn’t. He’s been on the team for two years. He’s only played in 17 games. Also, Eric Allen played three seasons for the Saints and will eventually be in the HOF. How many former Saints CBs can that be said of, regardless of tenure? McKenzie’s only played in 20 more games for the Saints, wasn’t half the cover corner Allen was and is running away with this current election.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
HOFer...SO WHAT!
Rickey Jackson is in the HOF for what he did as a Saint…(i hope) not because he won a SB with the 49ers. I’d would not use any superlatives to desscribe Allen’s career in NO. My best description of his tenure here is TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE.
17 games? Was he on the roster for two years or not?!!?! because i’ know Eric Allen missed games during his career. Whatever his creditentials say i dont know that he ever won us any games and he certainly didnt clinch the Superbowl. But hold on, my point is not whether or not Porter should be a candidate or that Allen should not be. My goal is to be realistic as to what this “All Time” team is while recognizing the decades of futility this fransise has endured. Moreover, if we are being honest, the truth is we have never had any good DB’s. Sure weve had some good players, fan favs, and a likely HOFer, but the truth is they all basically stunk.
“Moreover, if we are being honest, the truth is we have never had any good DB’s.”
I don’t disagree with this. So then, if it’s cr** across the board, why wouldn’t you begin to take a player’s entire body of work into account? I can see in a case like McAllister vs Campbell, Deuce stands out as a Saint, so it’s not really much of a contest. CB is completely different. Also, Eric Allen played three full 16 game seasons for the Saints. The reason he didn’t have many INTs during those three years is partly because opposing QBs were avoiding him based on his All-Pro reputation. That’s typically what shutdown corners bring to the table. It’s basically akin to opposing offensive linemen double teaming Doug Atkins, thereby freeing up someone else along the DL. It’s not a glaring asset in terms of statistics, but it absolutely has to be taken into account. For someone who preaches the virtues of having a decoy in the backfield, this should be common sense stuff.
“Although i did not take part in the vote for CB1”
Therein lies the problem. If you want a say in the matter, rock the vote.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
I'm glad we agree!
“why wouldn’t you begin to take a player’s entire body of work into account?”
What does this have to do with being an All-Time Saint? NOBODY thinks of Eric Allen as a NOS save us, because we are so desperate to cling to something significant. If we have to resort to what players did on other teams to justify their worth as a NOS, i’d rather leave the position open. Choosing Allen as one of our “All Time” CB’s would be comparable to the 49ers trying to put Rickey Jackson in thier “Ring of Honor” with Lott and Rice or worse yet, watching him get inducted wearing a 49er uniform.
“Three full 16 game seasons” i knew you were going to say that. So if we do this vote next year will Porter qualify?
Note on voting: I dont think I was a CSC member at that point….please dont check…if i was then it must have gotten past me.
"Three full 16 game seasons" i knew you were going to say that. So if we do this vote next year will Porter qualify?
Porter played in 5 games in 2008 and 12 games in 2009. I suppose if he figures out a way to milk 31 games out of the upcoming season, you will have earned the right to compare the two.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
31 games...
guess he wont qualify in your book no matter what he does.
“Rickey Jackson is in the HOF for what he did as a Saint…(i hope) not because he won a SB with the 49ers.”
Rickey Jackson’s in the HOF because he had a great CAREER. Players are enshrined based on their entire body of work, not just what you deem impressive.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Even without a SB...
RJ is a HOFer. “Winning” whatever that is, is no criteria of mine. Is Jack Haley better basketball player than Charles Barkley because he won some championships while playing in San Antonio? The answer is most assuredly no. But i will say the SB ring only served to help him get in!
make no mistake anout it, clearly Rickey Jackson made the HOF for his accomplaishments as a Saint
if you take away his Saints accomplishments he doesn’t make the HOF. If you end his career right before he goes to the 49ers, he is still HOF.
"I think we agree, the past is over" - George W Bush
"The greatest enemy of knowlege is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge" Stephen Hawking
Even Ashley Ambrose would be a better candidate than Tracy Porter.
Ambrose: 41 games played, 12 INTs, 42 career INTs.
Porter can’t touch any of those numbers. I don’t care WHEN his INT occurred. He was part of a better all-around team. If you put Ambrose on the 2009 Saints, I’m sure he’s taking that Manning pick to the house, as well. It’s just ridiculous to put THAT much weight on circumstantial factors.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Hmmm....
“It’s just ridiculous to put THAT much weight on circumstantial factors”
Is this the logic that ur gonna use to vote for AB over Brees for all time QB?
It’s the logic I use no matter who I vote for, regardless of position.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
I’ve already stated on numerous occasions that I think Brooks is the best QB we ever had, PRIOR TO BREES. Why would I mention Brees at all, if I thought Brooks was better? Btw, I think Johnny Unitas was the greatest QB in NFL history, prior to Bob Avellini. I’m sure you hear telling statements like that all time, eh Sherlock?
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
I knew it....
ur voting for brooks, admit it.
He’s voting for Brees. He all but said it.
Sammy Baugh was better than Bob Avellini, whoever that is.
May 6, 2009 … Former Bears quarterback Bob Avellini was acquitted today of charges that he drove drunk in downtown Wheaton in 2007. …
Peace, love and understanding
Tell me, is there no place for them today?
I watched every game that Eric Allen played in for Phila and NO
and when he got traded to NO, he was nowhere near the player that he was in his early days with Phila. That’s why he was let go.
"I think we agree, the past is over" - George W Bush
"The greatest enemy of knowlege is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge" Stephen Hawking
Agreed. He played terribly for the Saints and played mostly off reputation. I was always amazed at just how often he’d get thrown at and get penalized for defense holding or pass interference. That’s the one name on our all Saints team i don’t understand. He doesn’t belong.
I think he belongs, if only because a.) we’ve never had anyone else with his reputation, and b.) no one else at the position was ever considerably better than him (in terms of their skills set) to begin with. To me, it’s comparable to the nominees for DE being Doug Atkins, Elois Grooms, Brady Smith, Jared Tomich and Willie Whitehead. Granted, Atkins didn’t do anything for us compared to his career with the Bears, but absolutely none of those guys were anything special for the Saints. That’s about how I view Waymer, McKenzie and anyone else you want to heap on the CB pile, when compared to Allen.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Out of three first round CBs … Vince Buck, Alex Molden and Malcolm Jenkins … you would think at least one of them would be worthy of a mention among these chump collection. It’s truly ridiculous the track record we’ve had with drafting DBs over the last couple of decades. Even Sammy Knight was a UFA. Hopefully, Porter can keep it up and change some of that.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
vince buck
is worth a mention….10 int’s and around 600 yars returning punts in his first 2 or 3 seasons. he would have been decent if he could have stayed healthy.
"These two teams just should not play each other" ...John Madden during a 1991 Saints-Eagles game
*yards
"These two teams just should not play each other" ...John Madden during a 1991 Saints-Eagles game
Disagree, simply due to how i view this. It’s the all time great Saints team. Not all time great players who were Saints. I completely agree with the fact that Eric Allen might very well be the best corner ever to suit up for the Saints when you look at his career. However, when coming up with our CSC list i view Saints first, anything else second.
It’s the reason why i would never vote for Massey. Massey was exceptional, however, he was a Saint for only two years. The few years Eric Allen played for the Saints he was an average CB…not his fault, he was advancing in years and simply wasn’t the player he once was. To me it’s what you do in the Saints uniform, not what you do elsewhere, that gets you on the all time team. It’s simply how i view it.
Eric Allen is and always will be an Eagle….which is a huge reason i would not have voted for him. It’s why i will never, ever, ever vote for Darren Sharper. The last thing Sharper is and will be remembered for in his amazing career is being a Saint (exception given to some Saints fans of course). We’d never vote Stabler or Earl Campbell for all time great QB and RB respectively, even though Earl would hands down beat any Saint past of present for that honor based on career. I realize I don’t look at things the same way as others, and that’s more than fine, everyone after all are entitled to their opinions. Mine is quite simple. If you’re not a Saint first and foremost, you shouldn’t qualify.
(Before anyone asks, yes i view Brees as a Saint. Currently he may have 1 more year as a charger than a Saint, however, he has played more games, thrown for more yards and tds as a Saint. The bulk of his career will be while wearing the blank and gold.)
I agree with everything you said …
“The few years Eric Allen played for the Saints he was an average CB”
I just think this same assessment applies to every CB we’ve ever had, at best. I’d only use career as a tiebreaker of sorts. Same as I do with SB wins for QBs. They mean very little to me, just for the record. It’s a team game.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
I definitely agree with the SB wins to QBs. Totally overrated. Anyone who claims Marino isn’t a top QB should be slapped. And while i agree that with the exception of Waymer we haven’t had great CBs…i think that both McKenzie and Waymer deserve the spot over Allen.
While McKenzie wasn’t great, i do think he played well in his time here in N.O. and played a significant enough portion of his career here to counteract his GB years. His overall talent that he displayed in the black and gold was greater than Allen’s. Eric simply had the better overall career.
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