Who Starts At Linebacker Next to Scott Shanle and Jonathan Vilma?
by Andrew Juge on Aug 5, 2010 6:00 AM CDT
in 2010 New Orleans Saints Training Camp
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PrintWe know come week one against the Minnesota Vikings, barring injury, that Shanle and Vilma will both have starting spots at linebacker. The big question right now that no one knows the answer to is: who will start alongside them? This question is made more complicated due to the heavy rotations Gregg Williams likes to use. Does being a starter really mean anything anyway? Both on offense and defense, the Saints play the 53 guys they have. For example, while Henderson and Colston are both "starters", there's been plenty of games where Meachem and Moore have seen more snaps. Payton and Williams both rotate players in and out all game long. Based on matchups, one week we may see a ton of Zach Strief, and the next we may hardly see him at all. Ditto for role players like Anthony Hargrove and Bobby McCray on the other side of the ball. So while some of us may think Jo-Lonn Dunbar has the inside track on the starting position, even if wins the battle there's no guarantee he'll see the field for more than half the defensive plays. Below are the current linebackers on the Saints roster, and their chance of seeing playing time.
Clint Ingram: He's probably the most mysterious of the bunch. There's really no telling how he's going to fit in. Gregg Williams knows him from Jacksonville, and he's without question the biggest name of these potential starting linebackers. He's more decorated than any of the young guys he's competing with. The problem is he's yet to see the field. The Saints knew he wasn't 100% when they signed him, so I'm sure they're being patient with him, but at what point do they just send him packing if they feel like the other guys are playing well and he's not progressing health wise? Based on talent and experience, you would think Ingram is the favorite to be named the starter alongside Shanle and Vilma, but I just don't see that happening unless he can come back to the practice field really soon and just blow the coaching staff away. Normally it's hard to do that when you're rusty and just getting back.
Jonathan Casillas: Casillas plays behind Shanle on the strongside. I think it's pretty unlikely he'll see much time on the weakside, so I don't think he'll win the starting role or see many snaps over there. He should be getting tons of reps at strong with Shanle sitting out with an injury right now, though. He's a good one, and I feel good about his chances of making the team again.
Jo-Lonn Dunbar: He's the odds on favorite to win the starting spot. The job is his, basically, if he can prove that he's able to handle it. He's shown flashes of brilliance, there is absolutely no doubt, but the big question is still - can he put it all together? Fujita was so good not because he did anything amazingly well. Instead, he was plainly solid in every area with no glaring deficiencies. He made no mistakes, operated with good fundamentals, and was just a very smart football player. Dunbar is kind of the opposite. Fast, big, a huge hitter, and very flashy. What he lacks is the experience and poise to respect his assignment. He makes mistakes over-pursuing which can cost his team big plays. Before you start labeling him as the next Sedrick Hodge, though, make no mistake that they are not the same player. Dunbar plays with much ferocity. If he gets his pads on you, it's game over. I'm sure you've heard NFL people talk about "remember me hits" before, and that's Dunbar's trademark. I'm not talking about Tebucky Jones hits, either, because Dunbar actually wraps up. I can't wait to see him develop this year. There's no guarantee he'll be a legit NFL starter, but his potential has a very high ceiling and his opportunity to cultivate that is now.
Troy Evans: I've said it before and I'll say it again: God help the Saints if Evans sees the field much on defensive plays. The guy is a liability. I know the staff loves him, and they value his ability on special teams. But he's a Scott Fujita light. I respect the fact that Evans has been in the league this long, but frankly the amount of snaps he's seeing with the first team is scary. The Saints are also using him in the 3-4 package a lot as the 4th linebacker. If he makes the roster and plays, it'll be less about his freakishly good camp, and more about the lack of the youngster's ability to grow up in a hurry. If that's the case, then we're not looking too good at linebacker depth.
Stanley Arnoux: He's an even bigger mystery than Ingram. All we know is that everyone says this kid could be amazing, but he spent all of last year on IR. Is he even a guarantee to make final cuts? No way. He's really going to need to make a statement in preseason. I would love nothing more than for him to play well enough to make guys like Ingram and Evans expendable. We shall see. Tons of questions marks surround Arnoux.
Marvin Mitchell: He's Vilma's backup at middle linebacker, and I'm sure he'll get some snaps in the 3-4 as well. I know Dunbar and Arnoux can play in the middle a bit, too, so Mitchell isn't guaranteed a roster spot. Still, I think he sticks around. Mitchell doesn't have the potential of some of our young backers, but he's a decent player.
Anthony Waters: He was a 3rd round pick once upon a time, but I think he's a longshot to make the squad. He'll need a rash of injuries ahead of him and a huge dose of luck to make it. The Saints thought enough of him that they brought him back to camp after he joined the team last year, but ultimately I see Dunbar, Arnoux and Evans all ahead of Waters in the pecking order. I don't see him as the starter but he's got an outside chance to make the team.
So I've listed the 7 linebackers that are competing for roster spots. We know Vilma and Shanle are on the team and will be opening day starters. The question is how many linebackers do the Saints keep? 6 or 7? That means 2 or 3 of the names you see above will be cut. Who starts at WLB and who doesn't make the 53 man roster in your opinion?
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None of the above?
Maybe we can run Big Nickle as our base defense. If your trying to get your best 11 guys on the field this would be a better option. 4DL, 2LB, 2CB, 3 S.
As of now I am not impressed enough with our LB depth to get excited about any of these prospects. Maybe a preseason game or two will chnage my mind.
I'm probably sounding like a broken record...
…but I REALLY like Arnoux.
Watched him in college a lot (I live very near to Wake Forest), and he’s got that “something” that the best players have. If he stays healthy, he’ll make the roster. If he makes the roster, he’ll be the starting Will by the end of the season.
Who Dat? TWO DAT! Do dat AGAIN!!!
If I am reading this right, you didn't like Scott Fujita.
I think he was a very good linebacker. He is not irreolaceable, we’ll be fine without him. But he got offered a good contract, he’s a seasoned pro with a lot of seasons under his belt, very smart, pretty resilient, and he helped us win a superbowl and get to the NFC Championship game as MLB. Anyway, my bet is on Clint Ingram. It seems coaches like experience at the LB position.
"I think we agree, the past is over" - George W Bush
"The greatest enemy of knowlege is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge" Stephen Hawking
I believe Vilma was our MLB
"Why do you even ponder passing? I mean, you can take a knee and try a 56 yard field goal! This is not Detroit man, this is the Superbowl!" -- Paul Allen's call after Tracy Porter intercepted Brett Favre in NFCCG
Where did you get the impression he didn't like Fujita?
Fujita was so good not because he did anything amazingly well. Instead, he was plainly solid in every area with no glaring deficiencies. He made no mistakes, operated with good fundamentals, and was just a very smart football player.
Sounds to me that he liked him!
"It's about time that something good like this happened." - Drew Brees
now Patrick Willis, he's a monster!
Sean Payton and the players need to focus on the upcoming season and defending the title but I don’t.
Nice work, Andrew.
Our linebacker situation has me a little nervous at this point. Vilma is the only linebacker I feel can be completely relied on. Going 16-3 doesn’t mean there are no weaknesses to the team. Shanle can have his moments but was definitely our worst starting LB last season (sorry, M-E), and we’ve lost an average player in Fujita without gaining any clear replacement.
Last season, Casillas, Dunbar, Evans and Mitchell all saw roughly the same amount of snaps (<200) on defense. None of them impressed enough to push our starting players out, nor enough to win a starting role outright so far this season. None of that means that one of them hasn’t improved and could take a starting role, but there wasn’t any sign of it before training camp started.
On Ingram: I’m as worried as everyone else seems to be. Over the course of his time with the Jaguars, Ingram averaged 48.5 solo tackles per season, whilst the guy he might replace, Fujita, averaged 82.5 with the Saints. I understand he spent a lot of that time as a 3-4 linebacker, but Jags fans expressed dismay at his performance when they switched to a 4-3, and that’s still a pretty big drop-off in production. One plus with Ingram, though, is that he seemed to be a pretty effective run-stopping linebacker, with 22 stops and only 3.3 yards given up per run play in his direction last season. I’m not as bothered as Andrew that he’s injured right now; wasn’t this the case when we signed him? I’m sure the team will give him a while to prove himself, and only if there’s a clear standout in the other players will they be willing to cut him.
Given Gregg Williams comments yesterday on Arnoux and Vaughn, I think Arnoux will see most of his starting time through special teams duty. If he excels at that, I’m sure he’ll get a few snaps in the rotation, but I doubt this is his season to start, unless he shows something very special.
I see Casillas and Waters being cut, and Dunbar starting against the Vikings. Who knows how it’ll work out, but I have faith in GW to find a solution. Maybe we’ll see even greater use of the 3-4 this season.
If I am good I could add years to my life / I would rather add some life to my years.
Agree with you
that Linebacker is the position that is the most concerning. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that perhaps Ingram’s injury isn’t healing/progressing as well as the team hoped when he was signed. If he is able to come back from I think he would most likely get get the nod as the other starter. Odd man out will likely be Waters.
"It's about time that something good like this happened." - Drew Brees
What about
that cat we picked up for ‘Jita? I forgot his name. Frankly (and maybe it was because I’m a fan) but I would have rather lost Shanle then Fujita me, I’m just sayin….It’s all water under the bridge though and I know Jita had to play for that money boys, he had to play for that MF’in money!
Maybe
Just want some other thoughts about the possibility that the Saints pick up Aaron Schobel. Williams drafted him in 2001 in Buffalo and coached him for 3 years. From the looks of his stats, he is aggressive (like Williams likes), and is needless to say available and said to be interested in playing near home (Houston, putting us at least in play).
by theprogrammerman on Aug 5, 2010 11:13 AM CDT reply actions
Fujita’s biggest weakness was either his reactionary skills or his quickness. Not sure which, maybe a combination of the two. Whatever it was that plagued him, Shanle contracted the strain somewhere along the way, too. Far too often opposing RBs would beat our OLBs to the corner, they’d be flushed out by a pulling guard, etc. Practically zero backfield disruption … which isn’t exactly the bread and butter of ANY 4-3 OLB, but they should at least be able to occasionally knife through and wreak havoc. What IS supposed to be their bread and butter, is stringing out sweeps and neither have done a very good job of that in the past. So, while the vision of a Lance Briggs type force on the outside would be ideal, I’d be perfect content with a Channing Crowder. Trouble is, we don’t have any Channing Crowders. At least, not as of last season. Hopefully Arnoux and/or Ingram will bring more athleticism to the position … I’m just not holding my breath.
"I was not on the boat in question." -Darren Sharper
Schoebel just got released by the Bills
anybody got the skinny if the Saints are interested?
by A DOG NAMED DEUCE on Aug 5, 2010 11:32 AM CDT reply actions
He's a DE in a 4-3 not a LB
I have just heard him express interest in Texans, he’s from there. Saints could be a possibility but its just speculation at this point with the Saints.
He's beein kicking around the idea of retiring over the offseason
Adam Schefter says Schobel wants to play this year, but getting cut might make the retirement route a little easier for him.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
I think y'all may be reading a little too far into the Ingram situation
He came in hurt and its only a week into camp. He’s knows GW’s defense somewhat already and he’s always in the defensive huddle at training camp, learning. I think he wants the job bad enough that he will end up with it at the start of the season, if healthy (and more time off early increases the likelihood of him being healthy).
Arnoux I expect bigger things from too. Not neccasarily this year, but probably next year.
I expect a solid rotation of I-55 and Dunbar to start off the season, with Ingram taking more of the snaps as he gets healthier and more comfortable. Then, if someone goes down, Arnoux’s time will bump up.
I think Waters will get cut. and hopefully we’ll be doing well enough without Troy Evans to cut him as well, but I don’t think it’ll be easy to cut a captain. So maybe they’ll keep 8, how many do 3-4 defenses usually keep?
Aaron Schobel!
Here is another veteran linebacker out there and available. Arnoux seems a bit to brittle for my taste and on top of that he is 100% unproven! Get a veteran! There are still a few decent ones out there and Schobel is somebody who would have been a hot free agent earlier in the year! Let’s make a play.
14 million reasons why
"Why do you even ponder passing? I mean, you can take a knee and try a 56 yard field goal! This is not Detroit man, this is the Superbowl!" -- Paul Allen's call after Tracy Porter intercepted Brett Favre in NFCCG
Schobel is a DE
"Why do you even ponder passing? I mean, you can take a knee and try a 56 yard field goal! This is not Detroit man, this is the Superbowl!" -- Paul Allen's call after Tracy Porter intercepted Brett Favre in NFCCG
I think saintsdevotee might be on to something
“4DL, 2LB, 2CB, 3 S” Put shanle on weakside and jenkins in as the third safety on the strong side. Or just let GW have fun and figure it out.
Ihav a feeling they'd run us into the ground if we did that too much.
Harry Coleman would have been the size/type of guy we’d need to do that.
by ReggieVilma on Aug 5, 2010 2:19 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, or defense doesn’t need to be in base sets that make us even more susceptible to giving up big running plays.
by AJG on Aug 5, 2010 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions
you mean the "nickel"
4-2-5 is a nickel, each team can come up with any way they want to add up to 5 db’s. every team runs that def (or the dime) in passing situations.
NEVER QUIT!
by DrewBreesManCrush on Aug 5, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
yep
6 db’s is dime, and 7 db’s is known as the quarter or prevent.
NEVER QUIT!
by DrewBreesManCrush on Aug 5, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
No, I mean Big Nickel
If you’re playing Madden any way you get to 5 DBs is nickel, but if you follow the pro game they differentiate. Nickle will generally refer to a package with 3 corners. Big nickle os a package with three safties. The difference is that the safety is larger than the corner and is better equiped to handle running plays. He’s not as large as a LB, so not as good stopping the run as a traditional base defense. It’s best used when passing is more likely than run, but because of down/distance run is still an option. With our offense constantly scoring, opponents will be pressured to keep up. This makes them more likely to move towards pass heavy offenses that the big nickle thrives on. It all comes down to whether you think our 3rd LB is better than our 3rd safety.
by saintsdevotee on Aug 5, 2010 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions
The difference is that the safety is larger than the corner
Jenkins(fs) is better to stop the run than Jenkins(cb)?
Jenkins was never going to be a CB in this league anyways because of his size and his skills, so that point is moot. Also, as a FS, Jenkins is more(not all the time, but moreso) used as a pass-defender than a run defender. Roman Harper, the SS, is a more run-stopping safety
"Here's the funny thing. Last night, I couldn't sleep too well. I called my dad (Bill) at 2:15 in the morning, and told him I had a feeling I was going to hit the game-winner from 42 yards on the right hash. I think I was two yards off."- Garrett Hartley
That could work if we were using a LB/SS tweener as that 3rd safety, but I don’t think Malcolm Jenkins would be the right guy for that role. It might work if we had held on to Harry Coleman though.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
Alas
Poor Harry. It was primarily his tweenerness that led me to believe he’d have value & make the team.
"Dang! The Saints won the Super Bowl!" - my wife, Meso "Happy" Hu Dat.
I like it
Run more Nickel and Dime. Even put Bobby McCray at LB and Blitz him. I like the 3-3-5 set too! But our Secondary needs to be fresh. We have tacklers at LB, never a coverage LB so any of those guys would do! If I had to choose I like Troy Evans.
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