robyslyfe
"@AndrewJuge: @robyslyfe @RareCuts I'm in a heated debate. Figured you would know. Yes or no, can you make a fair catch on a kickoff"<--yes
Courtney Roby, responding to Andrew Juge and telling him that fair catches are allowable on kickoffs.
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about 1 year ago
Dave Cariello
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I thought that was already settled
With coldpizza weaseling out of it on a technicality while setting his opponent adrift in his verbosity. Not that I read it or anything.
Great. You throw the big Z's for 19 frames, and then you throw a strike on the last ball of a losing game. Wonderful. Just wonderful.
Not that I read it or anything.
You’ve obviously read more than me.
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by Dave Cariello on Mar 21, 2011 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Frankly, I’m surprised you would interject yourself into a one-sided argument, particularly one you haven’t fully read. Are all Twitter replies to @AndrewJuge considered front page CSC news?
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Whatever Dave considers news is news.
That’s how blogs and head bloggers work.
Doubt is part of all religion. All the religious thinkers were doubters.
Isaac Bashevis Singer
Guess I could have saved you guys a few hours of fighting then had I known the post was up for debate earlier… of course you can… assuming, of course, that the ball hasn’t yet touched the ground. And Pizza should know this too, it made a huge difference in a 2006 Bengals game against the Ravens.
Last week of November, the Ravens visited the Bengals and were in severe danger of being shut out 13-0 until very late (one minute left) in the game. Then they scored a TD and tried an onside kick. The attempt didn’t touch the ground and Keiwan Ratliff drew rave reviews from the NFL network commentators for having the presence of mind to signal for a fair catch and make sure the Ravens couldn’t interfere with his efforts to catch the ball (which were successful).
Not once did I claim that fair catches on kickoffs aren’t allowed. I stated that no player is entitled to fielding the ball on a kickoff and that is 100% true. That within the context of an opponent bearing down on you while waiting for a high kick within the field of play (or anywhere) for purposes of avoiding getting obliterated. In order to fair catch on a kickoff, you must establish possession and kneel the ball. There wouldn’t be enough time to do that in that situation.
The attempt didn’t touch the ground and Keiwan Ratliff drew rave reviews from the NFL network commentators for having the presence of mind to signal for a fair catch and make sure the Ravens couldn’t interfere with his efforts to catch the ball (which were successful).
He was praised for giving the Ravens’ players hesitation in hitting him, not for disallowing such a hit. Huge difference. He still had to establish possession and kneel the ball in order for the play to be whistled dead.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
In order to fair catch on a kickoff, you must establish possession and kneel the ball.
Nope. All you have to do is wave your little arm around and then catch the ball. And once he waves his arm it’s just like a fair catch on a punt and they CANNOT touch him. (And they didn’t.) But no kneeling is required. A fair catch is a fair catch is a fair catch. You only have to kneel for a TOUCHBACK. Which is not the same thing. You can touchback after the ball has dribbled into the endzone so long as no member of your team touched it outside of it.
He was praised for giving the Ravens’ players hesitation in hitting him, not for disallowing such a hit. Huge difference. He still had to establish possession and kneel the ball in order for the play to be whistled dead.
Nope again. Not your night I guess.
BTW, if you’d like to see the play I’m referring to… notice that he did NOT kneel the ball… and there wasn’t a single Raven’s player within five yards. As soon as he caught the ball, the play was over.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/cincinnati-bengals/09000d5d800ffa76/Bengals-13-Ravens-7
I could have sworn you had to kneel in that situation. Regardless, there’s no one within 10 yards of this guy and he still had to execute BOTH the wave and the catch without hearing footsteps, something most KICKOFF returners (with) aren’t accustomed to, so my point of someone being directly upon him and the difficulty that would present still stands.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
I suppose they’d BECOME accustomed to it, if kicking short of the goal line became a prevalent strategy amongst kickers. Still, in discouraging kicking teams to try for a touchback, you’re belying the point moving kickoffs up five yards. If they’re looking at it (the push up of the touchback point) as five additional yards of discouragement for the return man to bring it out, they seriously need to rethink that. Kicking off from the 40 would accomplish the same thing and NOT encourage short kicks!
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
You only have to kneel for a TOUCHBACK. Which is not the same thing. You can touchback after the ball has dribbled into the endzone so long as no member of your team touched it outside of it.
Pretty sure you have to kneel if the ball touched the ground, regardless of whether you’re in the end zone or not. Otherwise, what would be the point of having to kneel in the end zone? I was under the impression that the goal line was the demarcation between entitlement and non-entitlement. Since that’s evidently not the case, it would make no sense to have different procedure rules governing the two areas of the field, unless another factor came into place. I know I’ve seen upbacks on squib kickoffs kneel the ball before, so that would make sense.
There was also a specific incident that I recall from a game during the Ditka era (versus New England), in which Andre Hastings waved for a fair catch in the end zone, began to genuflect, but did NOT take a knee. The coverage team slowed up, then he took off down the sidelines. In looking up the details of that game though, it turns out that it was a punt. Which is odd in itself, for him to risk fielding a punt in the end zone. I don’t recall if the ball hit the ground first or not (I don’t think it did), just the fact that he DIDN’T kneel it when everyone in the Dome thought he was about to. Of course, the rules may have changed since then.
What about a punt that hits the ground first and is fielded outside of the end zone? I honestly don’t know if that can be kneeled or not. I know I’ve never seen anyone try to.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
Hmm OK got me on that one. Yes, if the ball is “still in play” (i.e. not a legitimate fair catch) then you have to kneel, slide, or run out of bounds to end the play. Or, of course, get tackled.
And if you happen to be in the end zone at the time and it’s not in some other fashion disqualified from being a touchback (IIRC, that would be by you or a teammate touching the ball outside of the endzone, in which case it would become a safety instead), then that causes it to be a touchback.
This made the front page?
It must be getting slow around here.
"My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them."-Winston Churchill
Agreed. A sidebar dispute over something said in passing, gets its own third party post. I’m flattered. Please let me know when the next witch hunt is scheduled. I’d love to be a part of it.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
You will be.
"My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them."-Winston Churchill
which witch is which?
sounds like a Scooby Doo episode
Atheists just take a pass,
Watch football in their underpants.
by Hans Petersen on Mar 22, 2011 8:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Who said anything about a dispute?
A Saints player tweeted one of my writers. I just thought it was cool. No mention of your name in the FanShot.
Geez, big head much?
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by Dave Cariello on Mar 22, 2011 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions
It IS pretty cool, Dave. So cool that I’m curious as to how often it happens. Suppose I go to Twitter and pull up all tweets directed to “one of your writers” originating from a Saints’ player. Just off the top of your standard size head, what percentage of those could I expect to find a corresponding single tweet post on CSC?
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
80%
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by Dave Cariello on Mar 22, 2011 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Really doesn’t happen much.
I hope you know I’m just playing around.
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by Dave Cariello on Mar 22, 2011 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Without the ball going out of bounds, there are 30 different scenarios that could conceivably involve a fair catch:
1. Punt within field of play, ball touches ground.
2. Punt within field of play, ball doesn’t touch ground.
3. Punt into end zone, ball touches ground within field of play, but not within end zone.
4. Punt into end zone, ball touches ground within end zone, but not within field of play.
5. Punt into end zone, ball touches ground both within field of play and end zone.
6. Punt into end zone, ball doesn’t touch ground.
7. Kickoff within field of play, ball touches ground.
8. Kickoff within field of play, ball doesn’t touch ground.
9. Kickoff into end zone, ball touches ground within field of play, but not within end zone.
10. Kickoff into end zone, ball touches ground within end zone, but not within field of play.
11. Kickoff into end zone, ball touches ground both within field of play and end zone.
12. Kickoff into end zone, ball doesn’t touch ground.
13. Free kick within field of play, ball touches ground.
14. Free kick within field of play, ball doesn’t touch ground.
15. Free kick into end zone, ball touches ground within field of play, but not within end zone.
16. Free kick into end zone, ball touches ground within end zone, but not within field of play.
17. Free kick into end zone, ball touches ground both within field of play and end zone.
18. Free kick into end zone, ball doesn’t touch ground.
19. Missed FG within field of play, ball touches ground.
20. Missed FG within field of play, ball doesn’t touch ground.
21. Missed FG into end zone, ball touches ground within field of play, but not within end zone.
22. Missed FG into end zone, ball touches ground within end zone, but not within field of play.
23. Missed FG into end zone, ball touches ground both within field of play and end zone.
24. Missed FG into end zone, ball doesn’t touch ground.
25. Missed drop kick FG within field of play, ball touches ground.
26. Missed drop kick FG within field of play, ball doesn’t touch ground.
27. Missed drop kick FG into end zone, ball touches ground within field of play, but not within end zone.
28. Missed drop kick FG into end zone, ball touches ground within end zone, but not within field of play.
29. Missed drop kick FG into end zone, ball touches ground both within field of play and end zone.
30. Missed drop kick FG into end zone, ball doesn’t touch ground.
Question 1: Does the non-use of a tee constitute the ball touching the ground, as it pertains to fair catch rules? Yes or no.
Question 2: Does the required pre-kick bounce on a drop kick attempt constitute the ball touching the ground, as it pertains to fair catch rules? Yes or no.
I would assume those two answers would be the same.
Beyond that, assuming there isn’t a muff and the ball is cleanly fielded by the receiving team, what are the requirements of executing a vaild fair catch in each of the 30 scenarios above?
Possible answers:
a.) waving your hand above your head before the ball arrives.
b.) taking a knee after the ball arrives.
c.) a fair catch is not allowed under this scenario.
I’m pretty sure that free kicks are governed by the same rules as kickoffs, other than you can’t use a tee. That said, I’ve never seen someone attempt an onside free kick, so maybe it’s considered a punt(?) i.e., not a live ball.
Also, I realize that fair catching a missed FG of any sort wouldn’t make sense, as you’d automatically gain possession from the point of the attempt. Regardless, I’d like to know how they’re governed. I’m assuming the same as a punt, since they occur on a downed play (typically 4th down).
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
I’m about 95% sure I can summarize this all accurately in a heck of a lot less than 60 answers.
1. If the ball is legitimately fair caught, the play is over immediately.
2. A legitimate fair catch must include a discernible hand-wave motion, followed by catching the ball in a single action.
3. I think that even a temporary bobble that you then secure changes it from a fair catch to a live ball. Could be wrong on that part. For sure dropping it to the ground and picking it up does.
4. In order to be a legitimate fair catch, the ball must not touch the ground after it the initial force of being kicked has occurred (i.e., though it would very rarely happen, it’s legal that a player can fair catch a really short or squibbed kickoff… which is essentially what Keiwan Ratliff did).
5. Not quite 100% sure here, but I’m about 99% sure the ball may not first be touched by any other player, whether of your own team or the opponent. I’m 100% sure this is true past the line of scrimmage. I’m only about 90% sure if the ball was “nicked” during the act of punting that it’s also true in that case. Of course, were some member of the opposing team to touch it first while otherwise still in the air it would be interference with a fair catch attempt if you had signaled first…
6. If it was otherwise legitimate to fair catch and you attempt to catch it but fail and it drops to the ground without you ever securing it, then it becomes a “muff” and a “semi-live” ball. Either team may recover it, but the kicking team may not advance it (unsure if your team may).
If anything disqualifies it from being a fair catch, then it’s a live ball. If you and your team never touched the ball in the “field of play” and the ball is now behind the end-zone line, giving yourself up by:
A) kneeling or
B) falling on the ball or
C) running out of bounds (including the back of the endzone) without crossing the goal-line
… creates a touchback. Doing any of the previous while in the end-zone while it is NOT legal to receive a touchback would create a safety instead.
You may also give yourself up (by doing any of the same three) at any point to end the play at that spot on the field.
If you have not given yourself up and are stripped of the ball it becomes a live ball that anybody can advance.
If you legitimately lateral to a teammate it remains a live ball. If you illegally forward-pass it, then the play officially ends by penalty at that point, although it will be allowed to play out in case of a change of possession that causes the opposing team to refuse the penalty.
Short of all that, you must be tackled to end the play.
There, what was that… 10 or 15 points? Much faster than answering every single question and giving you 60 answers.
So, the 2nd and 6th scenarios in each set would be “a” (waving).
The 1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th scenario in each set would either be “b” (kneeling, or any similiar form of surrender), or “c” since this type of post-bounce surrender is not technically considered a “fair catch” (even though most people would deem it as such, assuming it happened immediately after the catch), depending on how nitpicky you want to be.
The two yes or no questions are both “no”.
Correct? That’s about how I understood the rules all along. The only exceptions being scenarios 8, 12, 14 and 18. I thought those all had to be kneeled (surrendered) in order for the play to be blown dead, barring going out of bounds or being tackled.
If anything disqualifies it from being a fair catch, then it’s a live ball.
I’m also assuming you mean “live ball” as in “not dead”. A punt or missed FG wouldn’t be a “live ball” in terms of the kicking team being able to recover it, unless the receiving team touches it. Leon Lett versus the Dolphins is a good example of the missed FG “live ball” scenario. It should also be mentioned that the ball will eventually be blown dead when it comes to a rest, regardless of whether anyone touches it or not.
"I was not on the boat in question" -Darren Sharper
I’m also assuming you mean "live ball" as in "not dead". A punt or missed FG wouldn’t be a "live ball" in terms of the kicking team being able to recover it, unless the receiving team touches it.
Crap, yeah, sorry. Goofed on the phrasing. Should have said “live play” and something else has to happen after that point before the play is over. “Live ball” is, of course, something that can be recovered by either team.
Otherwise I think you’re either right or close enough that I’m tired of worrying about it.
I think that even a temporary bobble that you then secure changes it from a fair catch to a live ball.
They changed this rule last offseason. If the returner bobbles the catch, he still must have an opportunity to catch the ball. If the ball hits the ground, its live.
Peyton, I can eat Oreos faster than you!!!!
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