I don't have another post scheduled for today or enough time to write one. So I'll just throw out a topic and you guys can discuss it...
Would the Saints have won the game if Pierre Thomas hadn't been injured?
4 months ago
Dave Cariello
75 comments
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Comments
Not touching that one
Season is over. Time to look ahead in my book. To much frustration comes from disecting that game and wondering “what if’s” (at least to me). I would rather discuss who we think would be a good fit at DC is Gregg Williams decides to mosey on over to St. Louis?
I like Hamburgers!
Uh oh...better put an Asterisk on it.
Well he mosey'd
Who is number one in your hearts to replace Williams?
I like Hamburgers!
Uh oh...better put an Asterisk on it.
Spags.
Nolan right behind him, if cap lets us grab some free agents.
Bring back Aaron Brooks! He's the only one who can save us from the evil that is Drew Brees!!
Dallas’ misery will always be my delight
-TexansDC
Probably, especially if he had not fumbled and we scored on that series.
"We've established the run; we've established the pass. Now all we have to establish is another championship!"
"Some say the glass is half empty;
Some say the glass is half full.
I say- 'are you going to finish that beer'?"
If the whole play hadn't happened then I believe yes
But I’m also incredibly biased and in the we lost and they didn’t win boat
by DaymanCometh on Jan 17, 2012 12:11 AM CST up reply actions
The Niners were shutting down Ivory after 2-3 yards.
Maybe a shiftier runner would have helped, maybe not.
He would have been an additional asset in the passing game.
Has there been an official announcement on him other than concussion? How is he?
"Move over Marino, there's a new Brees coming through town!"-Jim Henderson
Yes
"As soon as Tony (Dungy) said we had no chance, I knew we had 'em right where we wanted 'em"--Coach Sean Payton right after Super Bowl XLIV with the Lombardi Trophy firmly in hand. WHO DAT!!
by David "Satch" Kelly on Jan 16, 2012 1:15 PM CST reply actions
Yes
But something something my aunt has balls. Wait, that’s not how it goes…
Bring back Aaron Brooks! He's the only one who can save us from the evil that is Drew Brees!!
Dallas’ misery will always be my delight
-TexansDC
Yes
But don’t go by me…Just checked my predictions. I couldn’t have been more off if I was chewing Peyote.
I do believe once PT went out it made us too one dimensional, and predictable.
Drew Brees....MVS Most Valuable Saint! Who Dat!!!
by cajuncommando58 on Jan 16, 2012 1:29 PM CST reply actions
Quite possible
if a few of the non-productive plays had been 3 or 4 yard screens to PT, could have kept drives going. Fresh legs and all that. If Gore goes out early, do niners win? But Grumps is right, it was a good season, time to scour the nation for a college kid who can cover Vernon Davis. And I think peyote would have helped my predictions.
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds" -Bob Marley
by PanheadCatahoula on Jan 16, 2012 1:32 PM CST reply actions
Maybe we need another hooper
to cover TE’s.
"I don't suffer from drug addiction. I enjoy it very much."
by cajuncreation on Jan 16, 2012 2:59 PM CST up reply actions
I feel that the loss of Pierre Thomas made it much easier for the 49ers to read run/pass and adds to the snaps the other RB see … he brings a combined play styles of the other RB’s … Darren Sproles shifty running and pass catching … Christopher Ivory power running … the rotation of the 3 was shown to be very productive in the Wildcard game … it opened up plays by making the defense pay attention to which was in and when Thomas was in had them guessing … do I think is was the only reason no … but was a major blow none the less
also, anytime you have to change your game plan mid stream because of losing a major component
it can affect you negatively. PT kinda was a big factor in making the engine go. Versatile and never loses yards. Great in picking up blitz and being an outlet oprion.
"We've established the run; we've established the pass. Now all we have to establish is another championship!"
"Some say the glass is half empty;
Some say the glass is half full.
I say- 'are you going to finish that beer'?"
No.
Don’t see why. We still would have turned the ball over 5 times. The only turnover that might have been different would be Roby’s because if PT was still in the game I don’t see why they take Sproles off of KR duty. Woulda, coulda, shoulda…they outplayed us. They deserve the credit.
-Lombardi was wrong...it's the internet, not fatigue that makes cowards of us all. But then again, what do you expect. Not like the guy could see the future.
maybe PT could have returned some kicks instead of Roby
"We live by the blitz, and we die by the blitz.'' - Roman Harper
"So I guess the blitz died.'' - Alex Smith
by Hans Petersen on Jan 16, 2012 2:02 PM CST up reply actions
This always surprises me
It’s like those guys that write alternative histories if the South had won the Civil War, and they figure Woodrow Wilson would still be president…just of the Confederacy.
Jeff, do you really not understand that still having Pierre after that hit by Whitner would have changed everything subsequent to that play? It’s not as though we were fated to have five turnovers.
What! shall we curse the planets of mishap
That plotted thus our glory's overthrow?
still having Pierre after that hit by Whitner would have changed everything subsequent to that play
That’s presumptuous. What can Pierre do that Sproles can’t? Certainly not take a hit. Certainly not hang on to the football. Who’s to say he wouldn’t have fumbled a 2nd time?
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
When was the last time you saw Sproles flat out break 3 tackles when he was dead to rights? Sproles is shifty, yeah, but as soon as he’s hit, he’s down.
What can Pierre do that Sproles can’t?
Wow. Just when I think you’ve exhausted my capacity to be surprised and exasperated by something you’ve said…
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010
Considerably more ypc, practically the same ypr. Sorry if you need a schematic so see they weren’t at a discernible disadvantage.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Well let me try...
What can Pierre do that Sproles can’t?
It’s not what Sproles can’t, but what Ivory can’t. Once we were limited to Sproles and Ivory we became predictable. Any time Ivory went in they knew it was a run. Yes that wouldn’t have changed if PT was there. Ivory still= run, but with PT in you have a RB who can run like Ivory, ie breaking tackles, and catch the ball. PT is also much better at blocking, and could have provided Drew with more protection to get the ball down-field, while still providing the out screen option, if no one is open down-field.
Drew Brees....MVS Most Valuable Saint! Who Dat!!!
by cajuncommando58 on Jan 17, 2012 9:22 AM CST up reply actions
Thomas is not a better pass blocker than Ivory. He’s a better receiver, but you still had that in Sproles, who’s just as good, if not a little better than Thomas. Seldom are two of the three in there at the same time, so I really don’t see what difference it would have made, other than fresh legs and no one ran the ball enough for that to even be a concern. I’m sure you could argue that we would have, had there been enough fresh legs to go around. I’m just not buying that, knowing Sean Payton’s vicarious lifestyle.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
I admit I don’t know where you’re coming from on the pass-blocking. I’ve long felt that Pierre was by far our best pass blocker as far as the RBs are concerned.
-Lombardi was wrong...it's the internet, not fatigue that makes cowards of us all. But then again, what do you expect. Not like the guy could see the future.
Bush was the best on the team for years, imo. Thomas seems horrendous in that department. Granted, I haven’t seen much of Sproles as a blocker, as he’s almost always either lined up wide or getting the ball himself in some form or fashion when he’s in there. So, maybe it’s presumptuous of me to say Thomas is worse than him. Ivory’s a better pass protector, though. I’ve seen him enough on play action to make that leap.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Strange…I always thought Bush was the worst. I can only remember him making 2 solid blocks…and both times the blocking assignment was specifically shown to him by Brees before the snap of the ball.
-Lombardi was wrong...it's the internet, not fatigue that makes cowards of us all. But then again, what do you expect. Not like the guy could see the future.
Maybe that’s why they stand out in your mind. It’s not something most people pay a lot of attention to. Bush was a pretty darn good pass blocker, though. Still is. I’ve never knocked him in that one area.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Technically, Collins is probably our best pass blocker among RBs now and no, that’s not saying much.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Well we will have to agree to disagree...
I think PT is a much better blocker than Ivory, in fact the best blocking RB we have. And as I said he is also there to catch the ball if Drew needs the out.
Drew Brees....MVS Most Valuable Saint! Who Dat!!!
by cajuncommando58 on Jan 18, 2012 9:28 AM CST up reply actions
LOL the hypocrisy of this statement is mind boggling. He’s NOT writing an alternative history. YOU and anyone else that thinks it would have changed the outcome are.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Ooooooo, Dave.
Did someone pay you a miiiiiiiilllllon dollars to post this?
Every day I'm shufflin'!
by Just 'Nother Day on Jan 16, 2012 2:32 PM CST reply actions
Most likely...
Yes. That play completely changed the game in my opinion. It seemed all downhill from there. In addition, Roby would not have been returning punts and we would not have abandoned the run.
Yet Sproles proved capable of fumbling, also. Maybe he fumbles on the kickoff, also. Or Thomas fumbles a second time in lieu of Sproles on offense. I’m with Jeff. There’s not a great enough difference in backs to think that it would have made a difference. I mean, maybe if Sproles is being carried off the field in exhausion, like Kellen Winslow Sr back in the day. They had enough weapons to do their thing. They simply got beat by the better team.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Yes.
Bear in mind, I fault the injury for the fumble. He was clearly dazed and limp immediately following the hit. So, no injury, no fumble, Saints perhaps score on the opening drive and set the tone of the game right away. And, I think having all three of our RBs available would have made a difference overall.
I disagree. Even if he shakes off the hit after the fact, the impact would have caused him to fumble. It was a vicious pop.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
And I disagree with you.
The impact had nothing to do with why the ball came out. He dropped the ball because the man was unconscious.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
by VAsaintsfan on Jan 17, 2012 12:24 PM CST up reply actions
First time I’ve ever seen an unconscious man stand up and walk off the field without the aid of smelling salts.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
You are aware that people can regain consciousness, right?
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
Yep. I’m also aware that they can blame fumbles on momentary unconsciousness that never occurred.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
What caused this purported unconscious, if not the impact, btw? Is Pierre a fainting goat in disguise?
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Further, players have regained consciousness and continued to play in the past. As such, you need to better define the “injury”. If the “injury” is a concussion, the “injury” didn’t cause the fumble. If the “injury” is momentary unconsciousness, he didn’t miss the remainder of the game due to that “injury”.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
His body went completely limp right after a blow to the head. Unconsciousness doesn’t seem like a huge assumption. And when have you ever seen a player come back from momentary unconsciousness to play in the same game? The rules say it isn’t allowed. Yeah, Colt McCoy did it, and the organization got ripped a new one for it. The rules say any hint of a concussion means you don’t play anymore that day. Momentary unconsciousness is more than a big hint for a concussion.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
It’s happened numerous times in the past, most of which were probably before they started keeping closer tabs on concussions. Regardless, if he was indeed concussed, it wasn’t the concussion that made him drop the ball. It was the impact (and perhaps the momentary unconsciousness that resulted from it) that caused the ball to come unlodged. If he wasn’t injured (concussed) he still drops the ball. Boxers get KOed all the time without suffering concussions.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
To sum it up, unconsciousness is not an injury. It’s a state of being. A concussion is an injury. It’s a bruised brain. Bruises don’t manifest themselves at the moment of impact. In takes a few seconds for disturbed blood to flow from the underlying vessels, gather and form the bruise. Fumbles are instantaneous. So regardless, the injury itself had no bearing on the fumble. At best, the hit that caused the fumble also caused the unconsciousness/concussion. Increased ice cream sales don’t lead to drowning.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
All of which has absolutely nothing to do with your original argument.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
Correct. My original argument was that they would have lost, even with a healthy Pierre in the lineup. This is a sidebar argument, based on your assertion that the injury Pierre sustained caused the fumble. It didn’t. The impact did.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Incorrect again
All I said was that Thomas lost the ball because he was unconscious. You argued that the impact caused the fumble. Then you launched into this BS about what an injury is which has nothing to do with this conversation at all. I don’t know if you are confusing me with Nabb1, but maybe those old eyes are failing you.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
I thought you had a clear understanding of dependent and independent variables. Obviously not.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Its my Fault that He got hurt. I drove up from LA to the Game, And I had his Jersey On. Its my fault. I am a big Jinx
Props to you for admitting this.
Now please proceed to punch yourself in the shoulder once.
Nice job Ranger.
I like Hamburgers!
Uh oh...better put an Asterisk on it.
I think it showed a need...
At any time during any game this season, we had three backs to choose from. This opened things up, as each does what he does very well. However, I think running practices where each back does something one of the others does well would be beneficial. We didn’t have the injuries we had last season and had a good running game, but if one of those backs went down to injury, that took out a part of the offensive scheme. If Ivory/Ingram could be plugged in where PT would normally be, the production would be less, but the play would still be there.
That said, I don’t think it matters if we would’ve won because we lost.
"I don't suffer from drug addiction. I enjoy it very much."
Possibly had he not been knocked out then they would not have allowed Roby to touch the ball to spell Sproles
And that would have been one less screw up
Just because we have chiseled abs and stunning features, it doesn't mean that we too can't not die in a freak gasoline fight accident.
by Fat Punk Kicker on Jan 16, 2012 3:10 PM CST reply actions
did I mention the Golden Globes are over?
"We live by the blitz, and we die by the blitz.'' - Roman Harper
"So I guess the blitz died.'' - Alex Smith
by Hans Petersen on Jan 16, 2012 3:48 PM CST up reply actions
it sure couldn't have hurt
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010
Running backs haven't changed any games against San Francisco this year. Doubt it would have affected much.
And then God created Saturn ... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it. ... Always a ninja
SaberCats Examiner | SB Nation Bay Area | Niners Nation | Twitter
It's more of the, he wouldn't have fumbled since he got KTFO.
Which would have kept Roby off kickoffs, which would mean the Saints aren’t in some giant hole to start, and Brees doesn’t press the ball leading to his early interceptions. It changes that aspect and PT is also a great screen runner. But it doesn’t matter, still lost.
Bring back Aaron Brooks! He's the only one who can save us from the evil that is Drew Brees!!
Dallas’ misery will always be my delight
-TexansDC
Yeah, I'm not trying to de-value him TOO much, and you make good points.
Just kind of crazy to see matter-of-fact “yes,” to the question. I wouldn’t even suggest the reverse if it were us on the losing end and, say, Frank Gore injured early in the game.
And then God created Saturn ... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it. ... Always a ninja
SaberCats Examiner | SB Nation Bay Area | Niners Nation | Twitter
I agree that an unequivocal yes is probably the wrong way to go
but the game was sooooooo close. Not hard to imagine that one of our best players actually playing would’ve made some sort of difference. I think it is fairly safe to say he doesn’t fumble if he isn’t knocked cold (which is sort of like saying if frogs had wings they wouldn’t bump their butts)
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010
Yes.
I’d like to point out that as long as PT has been on the team, we’ve lost both playoff games he’s missed, with Brees putting up ridiculous numbers because of it.
I really think if 49ers fans want to be on this site, it's fine.
But it’s not fine to give us a bag of crap if we think and express that the loss of PT may have had a big effect on the game. Congratulations, you outplayed us early and late when it counted. You won, but you should not even comment right now. We are trying to deal with the end of our season and you have a game next week. We have tried to be gracious losers. But let us discuss the way we want to. If your site is boring , go to the Ginats site.
"We've established the run; we've established the pass. Now all we have to establish is another championship!"
"Some say the glass is half empty;
Some say the glass is half full.
I say- 'are you going to finish that beer'?"
by Philinwood on Jan 16, 2012 6:46 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
BOOM! Rec'd!
Somebody make this green.
"As soon as Tony (Dungy) said we had no chance, I knew we had 'em right where we wanted 'em"--Coach Sean Payton right after Super Bowl XLIV with the Lombardi Trophy firmly in hand. WHO DAT!!
by David "Satch" Kelly on Jan 17, 2012 9:46 AM CST up reply actions
OK
Drew Brees....MVS Most Valuable Saint! Who Dat!!!
by cajuncommando58 on Jan 17, 2012 10:34 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe
Depends on if payton stayed with the pass only game plan. I think that not running, not screening and not short passing caused brees to be flooded in the pass rush. If we ran the ball and tried the short passing and screen game then yes the game would have been different. If they stuck with the game plan that we saw then no.
And don;t get me wrong, I know they were doing some shorter passes but notice when they got away from that is when we started struggling.
The problem in the world today is communication. Too much communication. - Homer Simpson
It would have changed their game
If PT was able to score it would have affected the mindset of 49er D. First It would have finished an impressive drive and send a strong message. Secondly PT would barrel down the middle to wear out the D-line later in the game. Remember the pressure came mosly from the middle… and.. dont forget his passblocking….
Paul
by The Flying Dutchman on Jan 16, 2012 10:05 PM CST reply actions
Thomas’s pass blocking is easily the worst of the three halfbacks who were active.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Geeez.
Never thought I would ever flag one of Dave’s posts.
This is gonng’ be a looooooooong off-season.
Every day I'm shufflin'!
by Just 'Nother Day on Jan 17, 2012 1:27 AM CST reply actions
Yes
I still have a hard time dealing with how this game was called…especially in light of the comments of Bill Romanowski (the guys on their blog posted about it before and after the game) leading up to the game where he said the 49ers needed to lay people out and have stretchers carrying people off the field. Defensive players should never lead with their head…period. They are aiming their helmets at people when they do.
Back to PT, I think that we lost a lot of our flexibility on offense and the defense was able to better key in on plays with the personnel that we lined up. PT is so much of a threat running inside, outside, and catching both screens and passes on routes out of the backfield, that it is hard to key in on any particular play with him in the game.
by BlackandGold4ever on Jan 17, 2012 7:30 AM CST reply actions
Possibly....
He does add a different dimension than Sproles and Ivory…tough, inside runner who is a threat coming out of the backfield for screen passes….good balance and good blocker…sure, he could have made a difference but we only make ourselves more sick by thinking about the “coulda’s” and the “woulda’s”…
C'est bon chére...
-cowhodat
(Who Dat fan in Broncoland)
The “coulda” or “woulda” scenario I’d rather address is, if Ingram’s injury was season ending, why the hell didn’t they put him on IR immediately, then bring Joique Bell up from the practice squad? Instead, they p**** footed around for nearly a month, while Detroit swooped in and plucked Bell for their very own. How does PayLoo counter that? By standing pat with three active halfbacks. One goes down in a crucial game and suddenly it’s back to the same hemming, hawing and second guessing of what “coulda” or “woulda” have been, had we had enough healthy legs. Well, guess what? We DID have enough. We simply mismanaged them. The irony of that being that Bell could have been on the active roster for the Seattle playoff game, as well. Not that Julius Jones’s performance left too, too much to be desired, outside of his fumble — he DID recover Brees’s fumble, so that could be looked at as a wash — but I’m sure Bell (or even DeShawn Wynn) could have served as an emergency back, had what happened to Thomas happened to JuJo. Conversely, when Lance Moore can’t go, do they stand pat with five WRs? Hell, no. They activate Arrington, whose one catch for 14 yards could have easily been covered by Roby or any other WR in the rotation. Once again, it’s a case of over valuing the passing game. I say “once again”. Not like 63:14 pass-run in a game that barely exceeded a two possession lead, doesn’t scream that on its own. This is just a microcosm of that questionable ideology.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
I feel a little dirty, but
agreed wholeheartedly.
I think I am, therefore I am... I think
by alcoholic_insight on Jan 18, 2012 4:21 AM CST up reply actions























