Spaggs vs Williams 2011 Def rankings
So decided to cruise over to the NFL's site to do a little comparison on stats/ranks for two certain defenses. ours and Da' Rams. Sorry couldn't resist(And yes wrong team) so here we go
Saints------------Rams
Stat/Rank
Pts/G: 21.2/13--------25.4/26
Yrds/G: 368.4/24-----358.4/22
Pass: 4157/30---------3301/7
Rush: 1738/12---------2433/31
Int: 9/28-------12/23
FF:(forced Fum.) 17/Tied-7th---------16/10
Fum Rec: 7/Tied 26th-----------6/Tied 28th
Sacks: 33.0/Tied-------------19th 39.0/Tied 15th
(Sorry the formatting did not like me)
The main idea behind this is to try to evaluate our past vs a potential future. While the stats may not be telling due to personnel defensively we were in the neighborhood of the Rams this season. Now I just wanted to get everyones thoughts on this.
This FanPost was written by a reader and member of Canal Street Chronicles. It does not necessarily reflect the views of CSC and its staff or editors.
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Well thats an eye opener
All I read is good things about Spags and it doesnt look like anything more then what we have had
I wonder if we could steal the 49ers DC
by mississippisaintsfan on Jan 17, 2012 9:43 PM CST reply actions
This is a different scenario
Steve Spagnolia didn’t have his hands all the way itnto the cookie jar.It’s a difference when your a defensive head coach opposed to being just a defensive coach having your hand all the way in the cookie jar.He can concentrate mainly just on the defense.There’’s the saying that sometimes your better off being the master of what you specialize in.Prime example Wade Phillips who sucks being a head coach but really showed he can be a good defensive coordinator(Houston Texans top ten defense).
Talent
I hope im wrong but i think its more of a talent issue then scheme issue. Coach can only do so much. .
I cant hear you in the dark ! (lip reader)
Let us also consider
That the Rams D was likely on the field a heck of a lot more than our D. Those stats could be greatly misleading.
I like Hamburgers!
Uh oh...better put an Asterisk on it.
Spagnuolo was the Rams’ head coach, not their defensive coordinator.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
You need to look at statistics from when he was a DC.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
And yes, I realize that a HC has final say, but not all HCs are as involved in their area of expertise as Sean Payton is. Conversely, no DC has the added burden of administering to the entire team. Same as Romeo Crennel or Jim Haslett or any other exceptional DC who has struggled with more responsibility. I think it’s fair to say that Haslett’s fared better as a coach when not looking over Mike McCarthy’s shoulder.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Agree with everything you said CP.
Weird.
Mark Ingram-OROY
Cam Jordan-DROY
New Orleans Saints-2012 Super Bowl Champs
TOP IS GAWD!
Not to mention look at the Rams offense this year. When you have pretty much more 3 and outs then any team in football…you put the defense in a bad position over and over and over again. Those kind of things additionally skew numbers.
-Lombardi was wrong...it's the internet, not fatigue that makes cowards of us all. But then again, what do you expect. Not like the guy could see the future.
Well you can also consider the injury situation of the respective defenses. Saints remained relatively healthy throughout the year, whilst I recall the Rams lost 5 or 6 defensive backs throughout the season.
Yea, If I remember correctly…they lost their 4 best cornerbacks. Has to suck.
-Lombardi was wrong...it's the internet, not fatigue that makes cowards of us all. But then again, what do you expect. Not like the guy could see the future.
Lost 4 best cornerbacks but were still 7th in pass yrds allowed.
I keep thinking of the word 'magical,' " he said. "When you think about the relationship between the Saints and the Gulf Coast and the city of New Orleans, it was more than just a football game and more than just a football team. The hopes, the dreams and the struggles of that community were all reflected in that football team. It was a great night for the people in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast region-Roger Goodell
Spagnuolo's defenses with the Giants:
2007: 7th in yards, 17th in points allowed
2008: 5th in yards, 5th in points allowed
Some context:
2005 Giants: 24th in yards, 14th in points allowed (Tim Lewis, d-coordinator)
2006 Giants: 25th in yards, 24th in points allowed (Tim Lewis, d-coordinator)
2009 Giants: 13th in yards, 30th in points allowed (Bill Sheridan, d-coordinator)
2010 Giants: 7th in yards, 17th in points (Perry Fewell, d-coordinator)
by Uncle Mo's Family Feedbag on Jan 18, 2012 12:55 PM CST up reply actions
Now those ARE telling
I'd rather not wait until I'm dead to figure out how to live.
by hooahsaint2.0 on Jan 18, 2012 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
And you dont think as a coach that came from being a D-Coordinator that he may have been as involved in the D as Payton is with our O?
I keep thinking of the word 'magical,' " he said. "When you think about the relationship between the Saints and the Gulf Coast and the city of New Orleans, it was more than just a football game and more than just a football team. The hopes, the dreams and the struggles of that community were all reflected in that football team. It was a great night for the people in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast region-Roger Goodell
Unlikely, but possible. Was Haslett in Rick Venturi’s hip pocket for three seasons? Not as I recall. Fans much more readily associated him with the woes of the offense (sticking with Brooks over Delhomme, for example), than what was transpiring on defense. If that’s the case, why aren’t we criticizing Payton for sticking with what hasn’t worked on defense? He seems to be getting a free pass on that (non-specialized) side of his realm of HC responsibility. A side that outright doesn’t exist as a coordinator.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
I know you think Payton is inept but..........
He did achieve two major coaching objectives this year:
1. Improving the special teams, which were horrible in 2010. I think the last gripe I saw posted about special teams was after the Green Bay game.
2. Being able to stop a strong running game (most of the time).
Oh, and the best offensive season, ever.
I’m not sure how well he improved special teams. Those numbers are deflated due to putting the ball in the endzone over 60% of the time and rarely ever punting. And when we did punt…30% of the time it was to pin inside the 20.
Additionally…I think we rarely stopped a strong running game with defense. Instead, we tended to stop strong running games by forcing opponents to throw constantly. I look at ypc a lot more than total yards given up because of that…and in that regard…we flat out stunk.
-Lombardi was wrong...it's the internet, not fatigue that makes cowards of us all. But then again, what do you expect. Not like the guy could see the future.
Our coverage teams were highly improved, whether you want to admit it or not.
by BlackandGold4ever on Jan 20, 2012 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
I would agree the Kick-off rule change helped.
But based on “pucker power”, special team coverage did improve. 2009 and 2010, one of my favorite things to watch was seeing how close Morstead came to making the TD-saving tackle, and he made a lot of those tackles until he was injured last year.
And before this year, there were times that I doubted the Saints could stop an “up-the-gut” strong running game and get the defense off the field. Although the Saints have given up some big runs (which is nothing new for them), I see a lot more 3-and-outs where the first two runs left 3rd-and-long.
Sometimes Stats don’t tell the story.
Thanks in part to a long dry spell in coin flipping
The Saints did not get out to a lot of big early leads this year, so I don’t think the “keep-up” explanation holds that well.
Not that big a fan of YPC either. To me, it’s the variance that’s important. If you have zero variance and get 4 YPC, you’ll move the chains every time, and even 80 yards rushing total could be devastating. I’d be more than happy to give up the 42-yard beak-away and 2-YPC average the other 19 rushes.
I agree with this.
And to counter coldpizza I would not say Payton has been sticking with what hasn’t worked on defense. He has had two Defensive coordinators in 5 seasons and is currently looking for a third. The majority of high round draft picks have been spent on defense during his tenure as well as some notable free agent acquisitions. IT just hasn’t panned out.
And to counter jeff and special teams, whether the numbers are skewed because of kickoffs isn’t that important. Payton made an obvious effort in the offseason to bring in strong coverage and return special team free agents, has had a different FG kicker every season and even used a draft pick on a punter.
So, the reason Payton hasn’t been criticized for Def and ST performance is because he has identified them as weaknesses and made obvious efforts to improve them. It hasn’t always worked, but by god, he has tried.
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Jan 19, 2012 3:53 PM CST up reply actions
And to counter coldpizza I would not say Payton has been sticking with what hasn’t worked on defense. He has had two Defensive coordinators in 5 seasons and is currently looking for a third. The majority of high round draft picks have been spent on defense during his tenure as well as some notable free agent acquisitions. IT just hasn’t panned out.
Sounds more like a list of excuses of why he’s stuck with the status quo, than an actual counterpoint.
So, the reason Payton hasn’t been criticized for Def and ST performance is because he has identified them as weaknesses and made obvious efforts to improve them. It hasn’t always worked, but by god, he has tried.
The same could be said of Haslett on offense and special teams. He made numerous changes to improve upon those areas from 2001-05. Sure, he stuck with Brooks through most of that time. As well he should have, considering the garbage backing him up. Payton’s stuck with Scott Shanle throughout his tenure, despite him being far less productive on defense than Brooks was on offense. No matter what you think of Brooks, there’s no argument that he’s one of the Top 5 QBs in the history of the franchise. I don’t think anyone alive makes that association with Shanle at OLB.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
You’ve lost me.
Regardless, there’s that other obvious little difference in Payton’s favor:
In six seasons, 1 Super Bowl victory, 4 playoff appearances, 3 division championships, and 5 playoff wins. Fans tend to cut you some slack with that kind of success.
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Jan 21, 2012 9:17 AM CST up reply actions
Most of which has stemmed from the offense. In other words, they’re not evaluating the situation fairly.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
No way. Shanle followed Payton over from Dallas. That love affair has nothing to do with Magda.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Oh, and the best offensive season, ever.
The most statistically productive? Absolutely. The best? I can name numerous that were more successful, by virtue of balanced play calling.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Actually, even the most statistically productive may be a misnomer. To be fair, you’d have to take the total number of offensive yards gained from every season and determine what annual leader represented the highest percentage of those yards. For example, if the Oorang Indians racked up 600 yards of offense and every other team in the league in 1921 racked up 200-300, they would clearly be a more dominant offense than the Saints were this season. There were actually quite a few teams in the same ballpark, so it wouldn’t surprise me if someone set themselves apart from the pack more so somewhere down the line.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
I'd like to see that...
So you are saying that “Balanced play calling” is what defines the best offense ever? PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE tell which Saints season was better than what we did this year?!!?! Or any NFL team in history for that matter… HERE WE GO.
So you are saying that "Balanced play calling" is what defines the best offense ever?
No, I’m saying it’s a factor that contributes to offensive efficiency, which is more important than cumulative scoring. Yardage and scoring CONSISTENCY should also factor in. 62 points against the Colts and 21 against the Rams the following week may add up to 83 points in two weeks, but wouldn’t 41 and 41 be more likely to net you two wins?
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE tell which Saints season was better than what we did this year?!!?! Or any NFL team in history for that matter…
Offensively, the 2009 Saints were better. They scored more points per offensive possession than this year’s team. That efficiency is primarily due to better balance in play calling. The 1999 Rams did, as well.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Sorry, I forgot. It’s strictly a coincidence that the two most offensively balanced Saints teams under Sean Payton are the two that advanced the furthest in the playoffs.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
It’s also a coincidence that for the 46th consecutive season, a team that passed more than 60% of the time in the regular season won’t be winning the Super Bowl.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Neither of those mean that we didn't have the most successful OFFENSIVE season
No, this season wasn’t the most successful for the team as a whole. I agree with you there. However, in terms of offensive production alone, this was the most successful offensive season in Saints history
Drew Brees- the REAL MVP.
We seem to be in agreement on that part
The most statistically productive? Absolutely.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
My thoughts exactly.
This post is irrelevant. Look back 3 years ago and then we’ll see.
"I've been big ever since I was little." - William "The Refrigerator" Perry
Follow me on the twitter machine @zacleto
The Rams were also on their 10 CB by the end of the season.
They had some serious injury problems
Just because we have chiseled abs and stunning features, it doesn't mean that we too can't not die in a freak gasoline fight accident.
by Fat Punk Kicker on Jan 18, 2012 3:12 PM CST reply actions
How about Keith Butler?
Or is it impossible to pry coaches away from Pittsburgh? He has been the LB coach there since 2003
by BlackandGold4ever on Jan 18, 2012 3:49 PM CST reply actions
It’s clearly not impossible. That’s where we found Haslett.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
The question is will we actually try to approach him…surely he has to be on somebody’s radar with the work he has done there.
by BlackandGold4ever on Jan 19, 2012 7:27 AM CST up reply actions
I'm just going to say it
Perry Fewell is probably the best DC in the league right now. The things he’s done with injuries/limited talent in Buffalo and NYC is just amazing.
"I've been big ever since I was little." - William "The Refrigerator" Perry
Follow me on the twitter machine @zacleto
Perry Fewell is looking for a HC job right now
He’s been gunning for that ever since his stint as interim HC in Buffalo. PF most likely wouldn’t take another DC job.
And to be honest, for the first 2/3’s of the season, Giants fans were calling him the worst ever.
GIANTS! 2011 NFC East Champs!
perry fewell?
are you saying the name of the singer for janes addiction (porno for pyros) and you have a speech impediment?
--- I don't miss the alcohol as much as I miss having the built in reason on why I'm nekkid in public.
--- I used to want to be an inspiration to my son. now i just hope to be a dire warning.
--- just two men and a dog making candles
--- I know i'll win my battles though i fear we'll lose the war
--- if you find yourself in a fair fight you failed in planning.
Mike Nolan:
Miserable HC in SF→ Good DC in Denver and Miami
Wade Phillips:
Terrible HC in Dallas→ Awesome DC in Houston
Romeo Crennel, Jim Haslett. I’m sure there’s a ton of other examples of great defensive coordinators who proved to be awful Head Coaches.
Steve SpagNOLA is one of them. He seemed overwhelmed by the responsibility and was unprepared to lead a terrible team. One of the main complaints over at Turf Show Times is that he was completely emotionless in front of the team and the media, while we in NY remember him as being passionate and fiery.
He’ll be great for you guys as a DC.
GIANTS! 2011 NFC East Champs!
I think we have the personnel
We need coaching with a new mind set. The Saints are not going to eat up the clock with an offense that will keep the defense on the sidelines. They will put up big numbers and score points fairly quickly. They will have 3 to 4 minute drives of less, rather than clock eating 7 to 8 minute drives. Therefore, we need a coach that looks to be able to rotate players with little to no drop off in talent. Rather than 6 or 7 horse, 5 or 6 good players and a bunch of fill in players, we need 24 to 28 good players of comparatively even skills. Let’s look at what we have:
defensive line: Smith, a very good end, who suffered under the blitz happy GW. He needs to given his head and let him create, like he has done in the past.
Sed Ellis is a stud, who also suffered under GW. He is a runstopper with good to very good rushing skills, who can be given more to do under a creative coach.
Shaun Rodgers, a former all-pro, who was wasted last year as a role player.
Turk McBride has done before and can do it again, if he is not used to cover tes and rbs.
There is some good material in the backups in Charleton, Franklin, Johnson, and Galette. Heck, I think Charleston could develop into one hell of a pass rushing specialist.
Linebacker is the place I feel, we need some help. I hate Scott Shanle, not because he is a bad player, but because he is limited in ability. He’s to small and too slow. Vilma is great, but he is having trouble staying healthy, because he has to do too much without being protected by his front four. Our new coordinator must design a defense that let’s Vilma and Smith freelance a little. i like the fire in Dunbar, but he is too small at 226. He gets run over by big backs and tight ends. He would make a great backup though. Ditto Casillas. I like Wilson as a backup middle, he has great measurables and works hard. I would like to see us run a little more 3-4 with Smith, Rodgers and Ellis up front and both Vilma and Wilson on the inside. However, we do need to quality outside linebackers, preferrably one that can pass rush off the STRONG SIDE.
Corners: Here, we are set with Patrick, Porter and Greer, all studs, who need to be let loose on ballhawking a little. I think they were more worried with breaking up the pass than intercepting it.
Safeties: I am torn here. I love Jenkins and Harper, but they are not used correctly. Harper, couldn’t cover my eighty year old mother with altiemers, much less a good tight end or running back. However, at rushing the passer and supporting the run, there is none better. I think a smart defensive minded coach could utilize his skill set. Jenkins is a great free safety, who can’t catch cold. He needs to work on his hands. He needs to be trained to catch the ball in the open and in traffic. Amaya is too small, I hate small safeties, they have trouble tackling the big men and safeties have to be able to tackle, if nothing else. Abdul-Quddus on the other hand could be the one to replace Harper as a cover safety. These two could be used as a single player, put into the correct situations.
All and all I like our present players on defense and think a smart defensive coordinator could use the talent he has with the help of two new outside linebackers.
Ajun Cajun exiled to Charlotte. I miss Mardi Gras and the Jazz Fest so much I could cry.
Man, I hope you're right, Ajun.
Cause I don’t see a lot of major changes, personnel-wise, for this next season. Cap issues, no first-round picks, and all that. I’m just hoping a few off-season acquisitions and a decent drafting class will improve our depth and add some competition for some positions. I also think that having a full training camp with our DC will do a lot toward improving some of our basic skills, ie, tackling and CATCHING THE DAMN BALL!!.
This isn't about rules, it's about manners. Now there's no rule that says that I cant come over here and fart on your entree. But I don't do it. Why? Because it's not good manners.
A lot depends on the new DC
Our old DC tried to force his system onto the players we have. It never works, the good coach adapts the system to the players he has.
Ajun Cajun exiled to Charlotte. I miss Mardi Gras and the Jazz Fest so much I could cry.
Spag sounds like the right guy for us. He is supposed to be able to work with what's available (within reason) and make it work.
That’s sure what I’m hoping for. I like our defensive players. I think they are all very talented. And, sticky fingers seems to come from a focus on it. I don’t think we had any focus on it the last two seasons. If we did, we would have kept Sharper!
YOu know, it always surprises me how little the defense's feet are held to the fire concerning keeping THEMSELVES on the sidelines
I am NOT going to use that word!!! And, I’m not picking on you, AC. I like what you are saying here.
But, to me, it seems like if the bloody defense wants to be on the sidelines, it’s pretty straightforward: 3 and out!
You misunderstand me
Defenses coaches like for the offensive to have long scoring drives that eat up clock, so that it limits the number of possessions that the opposing offense has. This limits the number of scoring opportunities for the opposing team. Additionally, it gives his starters rest, so he can limit the use of his bench.
Ajun Cajun exiled to Charlotte. I miss Mardi Gras and the Jazz Fest so much I could cry.
Oh, no, I understand that. It's just that 3 and out for the opponent is good for all!
And, then, scoring in 4 plays from the 10-20 yard line, just takes the heart out of the opponent….
I kinda like it! ;~)
And, I still want 100 points in a game!!!!! Maybe this season ;~)
Hmmmm, while I tried my darnedest to be a supporter of our defense the last two years, I'm beginning to think
that the only thing that made our defense look good was our offense. Any time our offense faltered at all, our defense would, effectively, fall apart. I mean, Drew carrying the offense on his shoulders is one thing, but ridiculous to expect him to carry the defense, as well. And, yet, that’s pretty much what he did this season. I just want to make sure I don’t cause confusion about what I am saying. I like our players. Our defensive architecture may or many not have been up to snuff. It was the play-by-play play-calling that I think was suspect.
The best Defense is a good Offense...
A well know Military adage.
Drew Brees....MVS Most Valuable Saint! Who Dat!!!
by cajuncommando58 on Jan 31, 2012 10:50 AM CST up reply actions

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