Saints to Trade Up Into First Round of 2012 NFL Draft...Maybe
You know the offseason is officially upon us when everyone starts talking about the annual Senior Bowl in Mobile, Alabama.
James Varney of the Times-Pic caught up with Saints director of college scouting Rick Reiprish in Mobile as he begins doing his part in helping to build the 2012 Saints team. Nothing exciting or new here, except for this little blurb at the very end of the article:
Reiprish and his staff find themselves in Mobile in a rather unusual situation as, for now, the team doesn't possess a first round pick in 2012. The Saints surrendered that pick to New England last year to move back into the first round and select Alabama running back Mark Ingram.
Given the famously fluid order of drafts, however, Reiprish noted there is no guarantee the Saints won't wind up with a first round pick in 2012, although he noted he isn't aware of any pending deal.
Oooooh. The Saints might wind up with a first round pick even though they already traded it away to New England last year to land Mark Ingram? I smell intrigue! Actually, I've just got absolutely nothing to write. But I wouldn't be doing my civic duty as an uncredentialed blogger if I didn't create a little drama using questionable tactics of yellow journalism.
Seriously, though, it's a good question. Will the Saints be as aggressive in this year's draft as they were last year and trade up to get back into the first round and grab the special player they want and need? Who would be worthy of such a move? And what would they give up to do it? I'll say this: it sure wouldn't surprise me in the least if they did. Payton and Loomis haven't held back yet. No sense in stopping now.
Personally, I say go for it. What the hell, right? Drew Brees ain't getting any younger. Or is he? I can't tell, he just keeps getting better and better. But if he's not, the window of opportunity for the Saints to win another championship or three is closing. We saw how close the Saints came this year; they're just a few pieces short of hoisting another Lombardi. If it means mortgaging the future to get there, so be it.
Thoughts?
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not that I think it's a 1st rounder
but was it ever made public what draft picks we got for bush in addition to amaya? maybe it was a conditional? if so, i would think reggie surely performed well enough for us to cash in.
The Pirates of Poydras will rule this day
by Nola5712 on Jan 24, 2012 6:47 AM CST via Android app reply actions
As far as I know
It still hasn’t been made public, although I did think it was conditional
Mark Ingram-OROY
Cam Jordan-DROY
New Orleans Saints-2012 Super Bowl Champs
TOP IS GAWD!
I think I read something here yesterday about it being simply a swap of 6th round picks
plus Amaya
"We live by the blitz, and we die by the blitz.'' - Roman Harper
"So I guess the blitz died.'' - Alex Smith
by Hans Petersen on Jan 24, 2012 7:57 AM CST up reply actions
Last year's big trade up was a waste, in my opinion.
Still not big on the Ingram deal. Yeah he scored a couple points this year in critical situations. But he’s a slowpoke and I think that anyone off the street could have done equally well.
Yeah...
cuz those RBs we picked up off the street when we lost to the Seahawks came in real handy when we needed right. The guys a rookie and did what he was brought in to do. Just cuz he doesn’t have break away speed doesn’t mean he’s not going to be good. He started to come on before he hurt his foot and I have no doubt he’ll do well with a OTAs and a full training camp under his belt.
" I’ve never done drugs but I think watching Matty Ice stare blankly towards the field as Drew Brees kneels down while clock hits zero in a playoff game would be like doing cocaine off a strippers @$$#….yeah that good.
Yes my hatred for Atlanta is unhealthy/ possibly illegal" - Malbrough
by born in areacode 318 on Jan 24, 2012 8:29 AM CST up reply actions
I’m tired of waiting. PT was pretty good immediately. Deuce was good. Ricky was meh and was meh his whole career. Either the running backs work or they don’t. We should not be trading up to reach for runningbacks. Now I wish we had the pick and not this guy who FAILED to meet his potential last year and will probably fail in the future. I’m a Saints fan, and i’m not going to support stupid decisions just because some guy is now on the team and previously won the dumbest award in sports.
I’m tired of waiting. PT was pretty good immediately.
Last I checked, Ingram had more yards from scrimmage this season, than Pierre had his rookie year.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
I’m tired of waiting. PT was pretty good immediately. Deuce was good. Ricky was meh and was meh his whole career. Either the running backs work or they don’t.
Your impatience is misguided. Sean Payton held Ingram back. Your problem lies with Payton.
Wanna say something? Sign up! It's free!
by Dave Cariello on Jan 25, 2012 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
But he struggled with injury, too.
And cp, pt was definitely held back during his freshman campaign more than Ingram was.
by xen-cuts on Jan 25, 2012 10:16 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
So put on the pads!
It’s easy to sit back and pontificate about how another player is weak while the heaviest thing you ever pick up is about 12 oz at a time. So suit up and show us how it’s done!
Lcash
by Lcash on Jan 24, 2012 8:38 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
i got something for ya Lcash
hug
--- I don't miss the alcohol as much as I miss having the built in reason on why I'm nekkid in public.
--- I used to want to be an inspiration to my son. now i just hope to be a dire warning.
--- just two men and a dog making candles
--- I know i'll win my battles though i fear we'll lose the war
--- if you find yourself in a fair fight you failed in planning.
Don't do it
I’m not a big fan of the “win now” mind set. Its exciting, but that’s not how you build a team for the long haul. Learn from New England. They go into each season with a team that is good enough to make the playoffs. Good year or bad year, they are still making the playoffs. Get to the playoffs and then its anybody’s game. When you make the playoffs every year, you are bound to win a few Super Bowls. When you load up on talent for one or two years, you might win that year, or you might fail. When you fail to win it all, as the Saints did this year, all of a sudden you’re in a position where you can’t improve next year without giving up more and more and more, mortgaging the next year in a gamble to stay good for this one. The Saints had a 1st round pick in every draft in the 2000s, and it worked out good for them. Don’t fall into the mindset of winning now and losing later.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
I feel that the scouting department has to approach this draft the same way they do every year
You never know what potential trades opportunities might come up, and you never know which players might fall well past their projected value. Basically, they have to help Payton and Loomis prepare themselves for any situation.
I think it's more likely
that the Saints make a big splash in the free agent market this season. Vincent Jackson? Mayhap Calais Campbell? Ahmad Brooks? Or—dare we even say it?—Mario Williams? [gasp!]
Anyway, free agents are likely to be more of a sure bet than a draft choice; can start immediately; and certainly won’t be more costly in terms of salary and draft choices combined that the Saints must pay to move up.
What! shall we curse the planets of mishap
That plotted thus our glory's overthrow?
Jackson
I can see only if they lose Colston. God would I love Mario Williams tho but he’s gonna demand A LOT of money and he might not want to leave Houston. I would be happy if we got Campbell tho.
" I’ve never done drugs but I think watching Matty Ice stare blankly towards the field as Drew Brees kneels down while clock hits zero in a playoff game would be like doing cocaine off a strippers @$$#….yeah that good.
Yes my hatred for Atlanta is unhealthy/ possibly illegal" - Malbrough
by born in areacode 318 on Jan 24, 2012 8:45 AM CST up reply actions
Houston may not want to keep him, they’ve got a lot of talent “in house” that they don’t have to pay big money for.
That said, Mario will want big money, and it would be hard to get him. But then you have to look at Loomis and wonder if he could find a way to structure it to give him that money yet still fit him under the cap… and I’m not about to say he can’t.
I just hope we keep him out of the NFC South. I can see the Panthers trying to land him. Or the Falcons, for that matter (he could be the key player in Nolan’s transition to a 3-4, which you know he’s really dying to do).
What! shall we curse the planets of mishap
That plotted thus our glory's overthrow?
I can see only if they lose Colston.
I can see it either way. Jackson’s a clear upgrade over either Colston or Meachem, so it’s not like you’re losing anything if one walks. The odds of neither walking are slim to none, so why wouldn’t you push to improve the position? Let the lesser chips fall where they may. There’s not enough WRs with an elite skills set available to pick and choose. You have to strike while the iron’s hot, which is especially important when you’re not going to be in a position to draft a franchise OT or WR otherwise.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
OT/WR being important in the sense that Brees has had trouble buying time the last two seasons. He either needs better protection or someone that demands double teams down field, thereby allowing others to gain separation more easily. Address neither and you’re bound to get more of the same in crunch time, when facing one of the league’s better defenses.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Agree. We are one injury from disaster on the OL. See the rams game. As it is we use smoke and mirrors to protect with what we have currently.
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Jan 25, 2012 7:41 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
There was this guy I wanted the Saints to draft in the Cincy Jungle mock draft and almost picked until Luke Stocker was (insanely) still available at the bottom of the third. Now I can’t remember his name, but he was one of those “raw” prospects that with proper coaching probably could become an elite left tackle. Give him a year or two as the backup and by the time Jermon’s contract is up we’d have his replacement in house.
Oh well. Maybe we’ll find somebody like that this year. Jermon has gotten better, but that only means he’s average instead of horrid. But he can do the job for a couple more years if he has to while his replacement is groomed as the “#6? is eligible”.
Yeah,
I doubt we’re going to have enough cash laying around to lure someone like Williams. Or V. Jackson for that matter. That dude is obviously fed up with not getting paid. Like BiAC318 though, I’d actually like Campbell on this team, and his price might be low enough. Maybe.
That dude is obviously fed up with not getting paid.
Was. He played for $11M+ last season.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Yeah, depends on their success in free agency before the draft
I think they’ll first work out contracts with Brees (no brainer; do any sane people think this won’t get done?), Carl Nicks, and Colston in that order of importance. Then, with our ever potent O locked in, they’ll focus everything else on rebuilding the defense to SpagNOLA’s standard of excellence. Revamping the front seven will surely be the priority. They need pass rushers in the worst way and I think they’ll first look for that in free agency. Only if that doesn’t fill the need will they think about making a deal to get a first round pick where they can draft a high prospect on the D-line or at LB.
"As soon as Tony (Dungy) said we had no chance, I knew we had 'em right where we wanted 'em"--Coach Sean Payton right after Super Bowl XLIV with the Lombardi Trophy firmly in hand. WHO DAT!!
by David "Satch" Kelly on Jan 24, 2012 9:35 AM CST up reply actions
Mario Williams would be perfect, wouldn't he?
"We've established the run; we've established the pass. Now all we have to establish is another championship!" (And a Defense!)
"Some say the glass is half empty;
Some say the glass is half full.
I say- 'are you going to finish that beer'?"
I've learned so much from my mistakes...I'm thinking of making a few more!"
Dreamin here. Indulge me anyway.
Top oft FA wish list:
Mathis, Mario, V Jax
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Jan 25, 2012 7:37 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
*top of my
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Jan 25, 2012 7:38 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I don't think the Saints will (or need to) move up
The LB and OL class is really deep this year, both positions of need. I’d hate to ship off more picks to jump into the first round and grab someone just for the sake of doing it.
Hmm, I’m not sure OL is a critical need…
But LBs we need badly. Unfortunately, we also need DEs and/or DTs, and I’m not so sure that class is deep enough to pull it off.
As good as De La Puente and Strief played in a pinch this year
the Saints could definitely use some competition/depth at the C and RT positions. Perhaps Charles Brown will finally step up this offseason? Personally, I think he could benefit from a conversion to TE, the position for which he was originally recruited at USC. He doesn’t seem to have a tackle build/frame.
Further, Carl Nicks is not guaranteed to re-sign (and the franchise tag may have to be used on Brees). The Saints are currently in no position to adequately address what would be a devastating loss of the All-Pro leviathan LG.
Well I will admit it’s possible that we could lose Nicks, but I really don’t see it happening. I think Mickey will be negotiating with both Condon and Nick’s agent via phone/email/fax/whatever on practically a trade-off basis, trying to get one deal done absolutely ASAP so he can concentrate on the other and/or use the tag if necessary.
So yeah, it’s possible… but remember where we got Nicks in the first place. Even if we do lose him, it’s not impossible that we could find another small-school guy (possibly with other bogus “character concerns”) who drops to the 4th or 5th round for us who is at least good enough.
That said, I really don’t think we will lose him anyway. And while yeah, we do need competition at center and tackle, I don’t think that’s something we need to worry about either trading up for or even drafting before the 4th or 5th round.
With the amount of carries Ingram got this year
Pierre Thomas is the main player for the role of trade bait. I’m not saying it will happen but PT offers some flexibility in the draft.
I drained my heart and burn my soul....I trained the core to stop my growth-MM
Yeah, I love PT, but he seems like the only tradeable piece that might net us some help on defense or a draft pick. If Ivory can improve his pass protection and/or ball-catching skills that would make a PT move hurt less since we wouldn’t be telegraphing RUN! every time Ivory hits the field.
by sammasaaron on Jan 24, 2012 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
You guys are nuts for even considering parting with PT. I just hope Payton and Loomis aren’t drinking from the same aquifer as y’all.
What! shall we curse the planets of mishap
That plotted thus our glory's overthrow?
by MtnExile on Jan 24, 2012 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
That's a rec right there
Which people claim that their team can defeat our professional football squad?
by CoachOfEarl on Jan 24, 2012 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
I don’t want to trade PT, but he’s one of the most expendable pieces on offense. Payton limited him to 7 rushes and 3 receptions on average this season. On his career he’s averaged about 8.3 rushes and 3 receptions per game. This is the first season he’s played all 16 games.
If we want to improve our defense, we will eventually have to lose some players on offense. Pierre is a likely candidate precisely because he has value and because there are players in place to fill the void he leaves.
by sammasaaron on Jan 24, 2012 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
Just stating the obvious
We have no one else of value that we can realistically let go that a team would be willing to trade for. Key word is “realistically.” We have other players that a team would want but it would hurt us severely to let them go. With the arrival of Ingram….PT could be considered expendable for the reason that his departure would not hurt us a severely as losing a player at another position.
I drained my heart and burn my soul....I trained the core to stop my growth-MM
by AcquiredPanic on Jan 24, 2012 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
stop bogarting
puff, puff, give.
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Jan 25, 2012 2:30 PM CST up reply actions
I hope not
I love how PT is almost impossible to bring down with first or even second contact.
"As soon as Tony (Dungy) said we had no chance, I knew we had 'em right where we wanted 'em"--Coach Sean Payton right after Super Bowl XLIV with the Lombardi Trophy firmly in hand. WHO DAT!!
by David "Satch" Kelly on Jan 24, 2012 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
I don't want to see him go either
Especially since we have him signed to a reasonable deal. I just don’t know see many other options we have in the trade department.
I drained my heart and burn my soul....I trained the core to stop my growth-MM
by AcquiredPanic on Jan 24, 2012 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
My feeling also but...
And before I start I don’t see him going, but…
His contract was structured where it is incentive laden starting this year. Sean had a reason for not playing him extensively last year. His contract therefore does not make acquiring him expensively prohibitive, and someone who make him a good trade option, for another team. If the right offer, with good draft compensation, say a first or high second round pick were offered I could see it happening. Ivory would also be a trade option, but I don’t see him bringing as much as PT could.
Drew Brees....MVS Most Valuable Saint! Who Dat!!!
by cajuncommando58 on Jan 24, 2012 12:55 PM CST up reply actions
They’d be extremely fortunate to get a first or high second for Pierre alone. He’s clearly injury prone and hasn’t proven to be anything more than a complementary back. That said, I agree he’s the expendable RB (i.e., anyone but Sproles) with the most trade value.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
FriarBob, you're the cap expert...tell me if this is feasible
We all worry that there might not be enough money to pay big free agent contracts like those for Mario Williams or Vincent Jackson. But we do have some leeway under the cap at present, and we’d have more if we jettisoned certain players. For instance: sign Williams and release Smith. And/or sign Jackson and make no effort to re-sign Meachem. In essence, we simply trade up for a better model. Then we draft low-salary players for depth.
How would doing so affect the cap for New Orleans? It would depend on how much the bonus payments in each contract were prorated and brought forward to this year, would it not?
What! shall we curse the planets of mishap
That plotted thus our glory's overthrow?
Hah, calling me a cap expert is going way too far. I know enough to be dangerous, but there is no way on earth I could write an NFL player’s contract.
But as to the primary point, there are three key things to keep in mind:
1) Dead money. If a player (like Smith) has “dead money” on his contract, this will make a difference as to whether he can be released or traded at all (or if not at all), and if he can be whether it will really help or hurt the team. You can generally release a player when the cap hit is less than his next year’s salary, but for a player whose truly worthless going forward you might do it for a slight loss. But even then, not a big one. For example, Smith had a pretty small signing bonus (12 million) and roster bonuses the last two offseasons (which usually don’t prorate so far as I know), which means he probably has at most 4 million in “dead money” left and may well have less. (You don’t have to prorate the signing bonus over the entire contract for some reason I don’t fully understand.) Compare that dead money to what their salary is for the next year and find out if you save cap room. His 2012 salary will be $7 million, so in theory that could be a 3 or 4 million savings (possibly even more). But there’s no way in hell Harper can be cut OR traded, as that would probably accelerate at least 10 million into this year’s cap (or 5 million each for 2012 & 2013 if this happened in August), and neither the early or late timeframe is feasible. It’s just not happening. Like him or not, Spags will have to find a way to use him.
2) Guaranteed money. If a player still has significant guaranteed money left on his contract, cutting him is all-but impossible. On the plus-side, with Smith his guarantees were the signing bonus and his first two year’s of salary plus those aforementioned roster bonuses. He’s out of guaranteed money, so IF we truly wanted to cut him (which I’m not saying we do or that we don’t) it won’t hurt us here.
3) Signing bonus vs salary vs other bonuses vs guaranteed/non-guaranteed money vs a whole heck of a lot more. Going forward, you have to structure the deals where the player feels he’s compensated fairly and yet give yourself room under the cap to work with. One key way to do this is exactly what we did with Smith, guarantee future money that won’t be paid for a few years (his roster bonuses in 2009 and 2010, and his 2008/2009 salaries), but he knows for sure he’ll get it. PT was given a lot of his first year salary guaranteed and a little bit of his second year. Lance apparently got his signing bonus and his first two year’s salary guaranteed. Etc. Not all of that money had to be paid immediately and not all of it counted towards that year’s cap number (2008/2009/2010/2011 are all under discussion for the various players involved).
Signing bonuses almost always prorate, and the length can be apparently controlled, but I’m pretty sure they have to be broken evenly. I could be wrong on that last. I’m about 95% sure roster bonuses only prorate if they occur after some midpoint of the offseason (probably July 1st), in which case they split in half (for cap purposes, not payment date) for the two years.
OK so what does this mean in actual negotiations for each person? Take this with a huge grain of salt, of course, I’m not Mickey’s alter-ego and I have NO idea what he’ll actually come up with. But within the limitations of my understanding of the cap, here’s at least one idea on how it could work.
Last reports had us with about $30 million in cap space not yet taken up for 2012. Let’s further assume (for now) that Smith either can’t be cut or won’t be. So no easy way to get extra money unless we renegotiate some contracts (and this probably can’t happen until June/July) to convert salary to bonuses that prorate somehow. And with free agency in April, renegotiated contracts probably won’t help us very much.
At any rate, if we wanted to pay Drew his fair-share of $18 million a year (and we’re going to have to pay at least that much) we have to come up with a way to structure it so he doesn’t count that much against the cap in 2012 or we’re down to only $12 million in cap space and that’s just not enough room. We also must consider that if he can still play at 38 (almost 39 with a Jan birthday) we don’t want him playing for somebody else, so this has to be a 6 year deal again. (Or maybe even 7 years.) This means $108+ mil in raw value. So first off we have to give him a big signing bonus. He’s worth it and no even merely good QB can not be given one, with him in the elite category it’s a must. Mickey will probably aim for something like $30 million in signing bonus, which is all paid in the first year but can prorate over part or all of the contract. Then he’ll probably guarantee some $5 million bonuses in at least two of years 2, 3, 4, & 5 so that it’s still “guaranteed money” but doesn’t count on this year’s cap. He’ll also almost certainly guarantee every bit of salary for 2012 and 2013, and likely also a good chuck for 2014. This ups the guaranteed money to around $50-60 million which is probably fair for an elite QB contract.
But now, in order to make this work with the cap, they must give him smaller raw “salary” numbers (which always goes against the current year) which must be really low in the first two years (where we so badly need the cap space before the 2014 TV contracts kick in). Maybe something like $5 million or so. By prorating the 30 million over only 5 years (to increase flexibility in years 5 & 6 when he’s 37/38) that’s 6 million a year, with a $5 million salary in 2011 and 2012, we could theoretically have him at a $11 million cap number for 2012 and $16 million for 2013 (or maybe even 13.5 if that assumed $5 million roster bonus were guaranteed but paid in August).
The last factor to consider is that the “key” factor in evaluating a deal is how much money is paid in the first three years. With $35 million in bonuses and $10 million in salary already accounted, for we’re well on the way, but we need this number to be at least $60-70 million to satisfy Condon (Brees isn’t a greedy Peyton-style prick, I’m not worried about him, but Condon is a whole different can of worms), so we’ll need to make his 2014 salary at least $10 million with probably another $10-15 million in some sort of bonus (hopefully one that can prorate, as the 2014 cap probably won’t go up by 50+ million and we will have new people to sign then). This gets us to $55-60 million in first three years, coming close to greed-bucket-Manning’s contract value and still leaving the team at least some flexibility in the cap in the future. Then with $5 million roster bonuses in 2014 and 2015, we’ve probably now accounted for all but about $38 million proposed $108 million, and we’d probably put the remaining amounts into salary in fairly flat fashion. There probably would be slight escalation but not likely to be much “back-loading”, so maybe 12.5/13.5/15 million salaries those last three years.
OK now we’re at $19 million left on the cap for 2012.
Next up we’ve got to keep Nicks. With Evans making only $3 million in actual salary this year (after getting $3 million plus $12 million in signing bonus last year), this might be a bit easier even though Evans is making an average of $8 million a year on his contract. If they offer Nicks a similarly structured contract (7years, 56 million), and if he truly does want to stay (as he claims, but you never really know for sure), then I think he’d probably take it. Given that Mickey specifically stated the Evans deal was not back-loaded with “funny money” and they expect him to play and earn every penny, they probably prorated that signing bonus over the entire 7 year contract. If they did the same for Nicks that means a $5 million cap value in 2012 and 2013. So he was pretty easy to deal with after all, so long as he truly wants to stay.
OK now we’re at $14 million for 2012.
Again Colston needs to be paid and if we’re going to keep him he’s going to have to make at least $8 million a year, probably $10. Here it’s a bit harder. WR don’t always last to play 13 years, so while we may well want to offer him a long-term deal we can’t back-load it too much. And given how little he’s been paid for his real “value” over the last few years, I’m thinking a $20+ million signing bonus is pretty much required. Let’s say we give him $24 million there on a 6 year deal, with very low salary again for 2012 and 2013 (say maybe only $2 million) but all of his salary for both years and for 2014 guaranteed. Then maybe a roster bonus in 2013 to keep him from being too annoyed about the very low “official” salary and we might be able to work this out. This gives us an $6 million cap hit for 2012.
We’re now at merely $8 million for everything, draft picks, free agents, resigning anybody else we want to keep, etc.
Now that’s not to say Mickey can’t do it. There are a ton of other cap tricks that he knows like the back of his hand and I’ve never heard of. I would not be surprised at all if the basic structure I propose is actually close what they do but they find ways to keep all three with only a total of $15 million in 2012 cap hit (as opposed to the $22 mil I detailed out). But all of that depends on three things: 1) the player truly wants to stay, 2) the player and agent both feel the contract, despite the “funny” structure (although when you really get down to it every NFL contract is probably has quite a bit of “funny” structure), still gives the player fair payment, 3) and again despite the funny structure the player and agent believe the player will truly get most or all of the money offered, especially in the first three years.
OK, I’m done with the book for now. Anybody still awake? :)
by FriarBob on Jan 24, 2012 1:03 PM CST up reply actions 6 recs
Rec'd it
at the very least for the sheer amount of information and effort on the part of FriarBob. Thanks!
Thanks Bob...
That really helped my Bud Heavy make me higher. Glad you were inclined to work the figures on this. Maybe Loomis could use an assistant. Bet you have an accounting background also.
Drew Brees....MVS Most Valuable Saint! Who Dat!!!
by cajuncommando58 on Jan 24, 2012 1:25 PM CST up reply actions
Well I have some accounting background. But it’s not my primary field by any means. Good thing too as I goofed on some of the subtotals on Drew’s proposed structure there… oops! I had them “right” for old numbers, adjusted some numbers, got them right again, then on rereading before posting lost track of $10 million dollars and adjusted them to wrong. Oops!
Actually, I'm like you...
I have some accounting background. No degree, but was a Circulation Manager for a Newspaper, and had to survive Annual Audits. Also implemented putting our customer billing on computers back then, in the eighties, which made the Audits much less painful.
Drew Brees....MVS Most Valuable Saint! Who Dat!!!
by cajuncommando58 on Jan 24, 2012 2:04 PM CST up reply actions
Um...that was a 'yes' or 'no' question
But still…couldn’t we cut some of the players we’re meaning to replace? If you need to sign a defensive end who wants 6 mil a year and you only have 3 mil to spare, but Will Smith makes 3 mil…well, you do the math.
No wait, don’t do the math, don’t do the math! My head already hurts…
What! shall we curse the planets of mishap
That plotted thus our glory's overthrow?
Well if Smith actually made 3 million (he makes far more) and if you had a contract ready to go that would only put 6 million onto this year’s cap, and if there was no dead money left on Smith’s contract (which there probably is, but not very much), then yeah, you could do that.
Sorry, but when it comes to cap, the only yes/no answer is “can we afford the cap hit by cutting/trading this player”. Everything else is spaghetti-logic.
So, the high side of $18M for Drew is not cast in stone, from what I understand you to say here. Thanks for that amazing
insight into the convoluted cap system and contracts. Fascinating.
Anyways, it seems to me that Drew has stated, pretty clearly (not the best negotiation tactics) two things. He expects to stay with the Saints and he wants, most of all, to keep the team together. I would say he has sent a message stating that he (goodness but I’m sooo tempted to capitalize He! Ha!) is not just in it for the money.
Now, I realize this is probably off-the-wall but that’s certainly not unusual for me. I must just smoke a good brand. But, there is nothing saying that Drew couldn’t say, “Look, I like money and I want the assured $50-$60 million but, above that, let’s be reasonable and make it some amount that makes it worth my while to stick around but doesn’t cripple the teams ability to succeed”. Like I said, that’s probably over-the-top but I could see him saying something somewhat similar. Maybe, he just says, “Don’t get all hung up about $18M.”
Anyways, I guess my question is whether that is possible. Not really whether it’s realistic, just whether it’s possible. I think it would be way friggin’ bold and cool but, yeah, not very likely. But, I can surely say that my respect for Drew would skyrocket even beyond wanting to capitalize “He”, if he did that. Somehow, I think I could find a way to live off of $50-$60M if I was pushed into it.
About last year's draft
What about Greg Romeus and Nate Bussey…do we expect to see anything from these guys at all?
Which people claim that their team can defeat our professional football squad?
58 (the end of the 2nd round) is not gonna give you..
the playmaking pass rusher we want.. we got to go get in the middle of the 1st round..
any of the top 5-7 guys would do..
http://walterfootball.com/draft2012DE.php
then we go get us the best inside LB left that has the better skill-set to cover..
lastly we get whatever we can on the rest of the rounds (including a fast receiver prospect)
by the 9th plague on Jan 24, 2012 12:41 PM CST reply actions
enough already.. and brees was a 2nd round & brady a 6th..
we don’t have time to experiment.. to see what happens..
we need to find a real player.. no mistakes possible.. we made enough of those already..
by the 9th plague on Jan 24, 2012 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
Haley and Allen made instant impacts; Randle did too, as soon as the Vikings made him a starter. The point is, we don’t have to wait for someone to develop…we just need to find the right guy—and that guy, historically, has been available in later rounds.
What! shall we curse the planets of mishap
That plotted thus our glory's overthrow?
Yeah. It can happen. But we have to find him first, and then hope we get lucky and nobody else finds him and drafts him before we do.
There’s always gems that slip down for whatever reason. Carl Nicks was called a character risk coming out of college. Jahri Evans was a small school wonder. Jimmy Graham only had one season under his belt, even though every expert was saying he had all the talent in the world. Sometimes it just takes the guts to pull the trigger on a high risk/ high reward player. Sometimes you’ll get a Marques Colston, sometimes you’ll get an Adrian McPherson. But in the mid to late rounds its worth the gamble.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
Sorry, couldn't resist
Rd 2, pick 51

Which people claim that their team can defeat our professional football squad?
Swilling was a 3rd rounder too
"We live by the blitz, and we die by the blitz.'' - Roman Harper
"So I guess the blitz died.'' - Alex Smith
by Hans Petersen on Jan 24, 2012 8:23 PM CST up reply actions
we can bring up all the history of the draft late picks..
& it still would not give you any certainty about any late picks, this year..
although that can also be true for the early picks.. the percentages of success become greater.. that’s why those players are rated higher..
it’s not to say that you can’t find some complimentary players in late rounds..
the core of dave’s article is: take it now, while we got it going thru the roof on offense..
when this offense goes away, for whatever reason.. the saints, more than likely will plummet to the bottom of the division.. just like most teams do..
i’m not sure what would merit caution.. i can’t seem to grasp the down side on betting the house now.. if injuries or what have you, derail our success next season.. what are future picks going to do to help us on the following season..?
go get one great player.. do the best you can resigning..
by the 9th plague on Jan 24, 2012 8:37 PM CST up reply actions
i can’t seem to grasp the down side on betting the house now.
Ask the Falcons if Julio Jones was worth it. They took the “win now” route. It didn’t get them a Super Bowl this year, and there year is a failure. Ask Mike Ditka if Ricky Williams was worth it. If that one great player doesn’t pan out, you’ve not only ruined your draft that year, but you can’t make up for it the next season. I would much rather the Saints take the Patriots school of drafting and build a franchise that is going to be good for a very long time, rather than risk it all on being great for one or two years.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
naah. naah.. naah..
wait a minute.. can’t compare the “level” of excellence we have & the chicken heads have..
i’m not even addressing the ditka/ricky comparison.. we were challenged on every offensive position.. we had nothing..
this team (the saints) should have competed for the SB this year.. it was not an invention of the media or their fan base.. the falcons were great in their own minds.. “matty could be better than brees..” riiiiiiiight..
no.. that is a stretch..
the patriot model is very nice.. although for all their shuffles on draft day, the best thing they got are those 2 tight-ends.. their defense sucks..
they sort of squeaked in the SB.. remains to be seen if they win..
there is an old saying.. “put all the meat on the grill..” kinda like “don’t worry bout the mule goin blind, now..”
we could always trade brees for somebody’s whole draft (hell.. 2 years worth) who knows we may find another brees among those picks, right..?
well, those odds are far worse than betting now, that you really are loaded, at least on one side of the ball..
of course, we can’t trade brees cause his not under contract.. not that anybody would consider that..
by the 9th plague on Jan 24, 2012 9:24 PM CST up reply actions
With what you’re saying here, we don’t need to get that one superstar to carry the team. We need a couple of role players that can handle their own and possibly be starters. Those are the kind of people you can pick up in the 2nd and 3rd round. The Saints are Super Bowl contenders, not some team looking to get over the hump like the Falcons were. We need depth and improvement, not rebuilding around a new foundation.
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
i'm letting it go.. cause..
everybody but my grand-maw have taken turns busting my theory..
i’m obviously on an island, here..
we’ll see what loomis/payton/spags think in a couple of months..
& no.. that one player is not supposed to carry the team, just change it.. & make everybody around him better.. we have tried to fill the voids with roll players & they have been just that.. roll players..
by the 9th plague on Jan 24, 2012 10:02 PM CST up reply actions
Been able to watch the Senior Bowl practices on TV
and even though they don’t show you too much, I like what I’ve seen from the guy that’s #12 on list, Cam Johnson from Virginia. On one play, he pushed the OT into the backfield to disrupt a running play. Also seemed to have good speed to get around tackles on speed rush.
by shipgoalie05 on Jan 24, 2012 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
12/21/11: This year, Johnson has 27 tackles with 11 tackles for a loss, four sacks and two forced fumbles. He has dealt with some injuries this season but played through them. Johnson has a nice mix of size and speed, with a quality get-off when the ball is snapped. He is strong at the point of attack and has a good burst to close on quarterbacks in the pocket. Johnson is a better player than his stat line indicates.
Sounds good to me. Put him on the list, Mickey.
What! shall we curse the planets of mishap
That plotted thus our glory's overthrow?
Even better, he’s a good all around prospect both vs the run and the pass and has played both 3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE in his career in college, plus he’s someone that should be available to us in either the second or third round.
-Lombardi was wrong...it's the internet, not fatigue that makes cowards of us all. But then again, what do you expect. Not like the guy could see the future.
i think you were kidding.. ~net? cole..
an inside LB type.. in the style of laurenitis.. sapgnola may like him on the 3rd round (assuming we do have a 3rd round pick.. do we..?)
we need to address the pass coverage of the middle of the defense.. the linebackers, specifically.. don’t know if cole is projected as a decent cover guy..
by the 9th plague on Jan 24, 2012 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I was kidding. There was a run of Audie Cole jokes after someone talked him up a week or so ago.
well.. he is pretty good.. ranked 4th at his position on walter..
i like this keucly guy,. the 1st on the list..
see link i had above & go to ILB..
by the 9th plague on Jan 24, 2012 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
I personally have him ranked 5th.
Something to think about, however….is the ILB class is weak this year when it comes to depth. You have Kuechly and Burfict who will probably go in the first round and Hightower who will go by the middle of the second. After that…there might not be another ILB taken until the fourth or fifth rounds.
-Lombardi was wrong...it's the internet, not fatigue that makes cowards of us all. But then again, what do you expect. Not like the guy could see the future.
Have any of y’all seen Chandler Jones from Syracuse? He’ll be available in the 2nd-3rd rounds and looks like a beast on the line.
by BlackandGold4ever on Jan 24, 2012 3:08 PM CST up reply actions
58 (the end of the 2nd round) is not gonna give you the playmaking pass rusher we want.
Carlos Dunlap disagrees with your assessment.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
I think to try to get up to the first round won't happen
…but if the right player is on the board, I can see them trading up higher into the second round…can we trade Reggie Bush again?
"I've seen George Foreman shadow box, and the shadow won." Muhammad Ali
can't believe this poll..
what are y’all gonna wait for..? the time is now..
god help me.. i hate caution.. & prudence.. & common sense, for that matter..
we ain’t talking a julio jones move.. just something to get 2 or 3 really valuable picks on defense, under spagnola’s clock..
i’m with dave.. the clock is ticking.. in fact it started ticking as the SF gameclock wound to zero..
bust out everything.. sign the pope.. if we have to..
Actually a Julio Jones situation is EXACTLY what we’re talking about. That’s what happens when you have no first round picks for ammuniton to move up. You saw what it took last year simply to move up to 28th…the loss of our first round pick last year, plus our second round pick which is also higher than what we have this year. Which means to move up into the first round would most likely cost us a future first round pick, our second round pick, and probably a fourth round pick this year. No thank you.
-Lombardi was wrong...it's the internet, not fatigue that makes cowards of us all. But then again, what do you expect. Not like the guy could see the future.
i can't see the correlation..
we do not need to get to the top 5 notch.. THAT would cost you everything.. but for example a team like the bengals have two 1st round picks.. i believe they are both under the 20 spot or around.. making a move for the latter of those picks would really ensure the best or 2nd best player available at a particular position we may need..(or so projected)
and we do need a bigtime passrusher, tall, lean, fast, with several moves.. i don’t care if he can’t play the run.. a specialist..
that move may cost you next year’s 1st round & another pick but it would be worth it..
by the 9th plague on Jan 24, 2012 5:53 PM CST up reply actions
Why risk everything on draft picks when you can sign free agents? This is a pretty rich free agent year, actually. Maybe we can give our entire draft to get a first rounder, get someone really good, and also sign several top notch free agents. And all go fishing together to celebrate, and a storm comes up, and we wind up wrecked on the Island of Free Beer and Cable. That’s my plan, anyway.
What! shall we curse the planets of mishap
That plotted thus our glory's overthrow?
by MtnExile on Jan 24, 2012 6:01 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
like it..
friarbob may want to expand.. but drafting in the mid-1st round is cheaper than acquiring a free agent.. there is no free agent that fits the mold, i think we may be seeking (a pierre-paul type of player)
the best you could get would be abraham & he would cost you the money that you don’t have..
i’ve said it before.. we have to find the jimmy graham on defense, unfortunately, these passrushers are close to being most coveted players, at least on defense.. cause everybody has figured out that if you’re stuck in a division with a brees/rogers/brady/eli.. you fu~!ed..
by the 9th plague on Jan 24, 2012 6:10 PM CST up reply actions
Pierre-Paul didn’t do d*** as a rookie. So much for win now.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
Win now = free agency
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Jan 25, 2012 7:47 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Agreed. The draft is too much of a crap shoot, no matter where you’re picking. I’d just suck it up and try my best to improve through UFA. I mean, we traded up into the Top 7 to get Sedrick Ellis and it’s not like he’s played lights out better than guys we could have gotten later in that draft. He’s not an exception, either. The exceptions are the guys who actually come in and make an immediate impact as a rookie.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
The difference between the best pass rusher at the end of the first and the best pass rusher at the end of the 2nd certainly ISN’T worth an additional 1st round pick. Feel free to name the 20-32 pick from the past decade that’s outperformed Carlos Dunlap.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
To ascertain the type of player that merits such a move up, you’d have to do exactly what Jeff is suggesting. Top half of the first, possibly Top 10 pick. Anything below J.J. Watt/Ryan Kerrigan territory has proven to be just as hit or miss as anything you can dredge out of the bottom of the 2nd.
"I don’t intend to draw any conclusions from any single game." -Brian Burke
"I will now attempt to exclude specific large amounts of TOP from the totals of winning teams, in order to prove that TOP doesn't contribute to winning." -Dr. Jeremy Arkes
I hate to limit our options...
sign the pope..
…but I think he may already be under long-term contract. And although technically he could be a Saint someday, he will probably have lost a step or two by the time he is.
This isn't about rules, it's about manners. Now there's no rule that says that I cant come over here and fart on your entree. But I don't do it. Why? Because it's not good manners.
That's just preciously off-the-wall
Do you know the one about the pope driving to lafayette….never mind
Honestly, Plague, I don't think he needs the 'valuable picks'. He's a guy that seems to get it done with what is there, which
is always my preference. Yeah, okay, the pope probably wouldn’t work, but…
Trade up and get Courtney Upshaw.
The kid was a beast at Bama and would look good opposite Martez next year.
The base paths belonged to me, the runner. The rules gave me the right. I always went into a bag full speed, feet first. I had sharp spikes on my shoes. If the baseman stood where he had no business to be and got hurt, that was his fault. -Ty Cobb
On offense
I think the Saints suck at finding walk-ons for defense.
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by Dave Cariello on Jan 24, 2012 8:20 PM CST up reply actions
I think that goes to the question I've had for a while. While I supported GW as DC and we had a passable
defense, it was surely not one that the opponents were afraid of, like our offense. So, why was that? What was missing? Certainly the play-calling, the down-in-the-trenches what-do-we-do-now seemed to be a problem. And, yes, on defense, we did not do so well, and I should have probably added FA’s and just incredible insights (i.e. scouting) in the draft (rather than burning money like it was water) is where a team should be able to distinguish itself on both sides of the ball. But, back to the original response, I often wonder if the defense wasn’t hampered (and may still be in the future) by a Head Coach that is predominantly an offensive coach. I would guess that was orginally the case, when SP was new to the HC job. But, I would also guess it is less and less the case every year. I would also guess that SpagNOLA may be just the ingredient to take that a step further. As usual, I am all kinds of excited about the prospects of the Saints kicking it around the block.
Somebody, somewhere mentioned how the Patriots scraped into the Superbowl and it remains to be seen whether the can scrape their way out of it. THAT is what great teams do. They find a way to play beyond their actual capability. No excuses about how lousy the defense is (and, as much as we complain about our defense, it was not NEARLY as bad as the Pats, this year). I can’t think of a closer comparison of teams than the Saints and the Pats. Powerhouse offense and meh defense. And, that ability to play beyond ourselves is what seems to come up short on occasion (and, really, not all that often, though more often than the Pats). I am expecting that, this year, we will be back to kicking it around the block like there was no tomorrow. Sigh. I hope so, anyways.
I'm really hoping Greg Romeus pans out to be an impact player like many think he can be
I also think just getting rid of Will Smith and letting some young guys compete under Spags mentorship might be the ticket. I don’t see Spags making Smith any better. But Galette, Wison, maybe a couple of others (maybe Bussey, Casillas, Dunbar, Humber) yes I think it could happen.
"We've established the run; we've established the pass. Now all we have to establish is another championship!" (And a Defense!)
"Some say the glass is half empty;
Some say the glass is half full.
I say- 'are you going to finish that beer'?"
I've learned so much from my mistakes...I'm thinking of making a few more!"
re: OL
the little bit that Pat McQuistan played, I was impressed with him. Maybe just as a sub and/or coming in as an extra OL or TE. But also I hope Dave Thomas can come back healthy and effective. Having that 2nd TE who is also a threat as a receiver is a huge thing in the is era in the NFL. Alternatively, Michael Higgins may have a shot.
"We've established the run; we've established the pass. Now all we have to establish is another championship!" (And a Defense!)
"Some say the glass is half empty;
Some say the glass is half full.
I say- 'are you going to finish that beer'?"
I've learned so much from my mistakes...I'm thinking of making a few more!"
Draft....
When i think of draft i rather think of draft beer…. ice cold in a glas bottle or one of them aluminum cans… Picking a player in the NFL draft is as unpredictable as a hurricane…. yeah we know generally which direction it is going but what category it is when it makes landfall and how hard it hits is always a waiting game until you are standing right there with your microphone and camera and your raingear and get your funky underware blown off. I know one thing and that is that a college player prefers to join a winning team… so no matter who gets picked to play for the Saints knows that they are going to have to step it up a notch to live up to expectations. We’ve all seen the prodigees come by, Heralded as the greatest gift to the gridiron since the days they had to chase the cows of the grass but turned out to be pageants or motivated by the richness a contract brings. The draft is a gamble… but if they play their cards right it could bring that little tiny extra to the game that results in turnovers, an extra sack or an amazing catch right when we need it and from there on in to Sainthood….
Paul
by The Flying Dutchman on Jan 26, 2012 8:21 AM CST reply actions

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