Measuring Mark Ingram
Throw a Heisman Trophy winning running back in front of the Saints on draft day and they just can't help themselves. It's like dangling a T-bone steak in front of a salivating bulldog, and they will trade away their life savings and first born to put themselves in position to make the pick if necessary. Since 1981, the Saints have drafted four Heisman Trophy Running Backs: George Rogers, Ricky Williams, Reggie Bush and most recently, Mark Ingram. You can also include Earl Campbell in the mix, whom the Saints traded for in 1984, reuniting then Coach Bum Phillips with his former All Pro running back from the Houston Oilers. Obviously, there was a fairly wide time gap between Rogers and Williams, but the irresistible attraction never faded away.
The jury is still out on Ingram after just one season, but it is safe to say that Rogers, Williams and Bush never met the high expectations that Saints fans had for them when their names were called within the top five picks. Dealing with "off the field issues" has been a common denominator that plagued our first three Heisman draft choices. Rogers and Williams each battled highly publicized drug use, while Bush had some lingering unfinished business from his college days at USC that had to be a distraction.
So, what does the Saints disappointing track record with Heisman Trophy running backs mean for Mark Ingram's career? Maybe nothing at all. But he didn't exactly burst out of the gate in his rookie season. Character issues certainly don't seem to be a problem with Ingram, but like many great running backs he has shown to be injury prone. After missing two games mid-season with a bruised heel, a sprained toe kept Ingram out of the last four games, and ended the season rushing for 474 yards on 122 carries and scoring five touchdowns.
Even with the setback from injuries, Ingram's non-spectacular statistics must be put in perspective when comparing to the Saints other Heisman winners. When Rogers, Williams and Bush were drafted they were each expected to be the savior from the very first moment they put the Black and Gold jerseys over their custom made suits on the NFL Draft stage. When Ingram was drafted the Saints already had their savior in Drew Breesus, they just needed to add a downfield running dimension to the roster of disciples, which Bush obviously lacked. However, it was free agent Darren Sproles that proved to be the Saints' best weapon in providing both a vertical running game along with being dangerous in open space as Bush was.
With the addition of Sproles to the arsenal of other playmakers that Brees has at his disposal to distribute the ball, evaluating the success of Ingram can be tricky. Playing tailback in the Saints pass-oriented system, Ingram would be getting less carries as the featured back anyway. But sharing time in the backfield with the very capable Sproles, Pierre Thomas and even Chris Ivory, his potenital number of carries per game are even less likely to reach any significant level.
At 5'9" and 215 lbs, Ingram's compact size and acceleration has often drawn comparisons to all-time NFL leading rusher Emmitt Smith. However, the concept of NFL running backs carrying the ball 25-30 times a game and wearing down defenses is so 1992, and Coach Sean Payton is definitely an offensive innovator, not a traditionalist.
Considering Ingram's circumstances, should his success be judged by the traditional criteria of rushing yards and touchdowns? Or should it be by yards per carry? The "team oriented" approach to judging Mark Ingram would be if his career with the Saints helps bring the team another or multiple Lombardi Trophies, regardless of statistics. However, Reggie Bush for all of his faults did that, and he was gone after only one more season.
My guess is that when it comes down to it, Mark Ingram's value to the Saints will ultimately be judged by the same way it is for every other NFL player regardless of former Heisman Trophy winner or not. And that is by the principle that overrides both statistics and championships, presenting itself in the form of the question, "What have you done for me lately?"
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The Real Problem
Is that he doesn’t catch the ball or do screens as well as Pierre and Sproles; he doesn’t run between the tackles as well as Pierre or Ivory; and he isn’t more durable either. I would be happy with him if we hadn’t taken him in the first, but he really isn’t showing us something special.
by GnomeChumpsky on Feb 16, 2012 9:33 AM CST via Android app reply actions
Neither did Deuce in his first year.
Way too early to evaluate Mark Ingrams career ( one year in the NFL ). Personally, I think he did what he was asked to do, and did a good job doing it. He IS after all, a part of the most prolific offense in NFL history.
Deuce was clearly the answer as a rookie.
We still had Ricky Williams when Deuce was out there for 3x plays a game and on special teams. Deuce looked like the answer from day 1. The big question was, what could we get for Ricky Williams and would anyone trade for him.
Ingram looked pretty bad in his first season. I hope he improves. But right now I’d like that draft pick back. And if we could trade him for a 3rd rounder or better, I’d do it.
Deuce had 257 yards his rookie season
Not hardly a "rookie sensation " by any stretch of the imagination…Like I said, way to early to judge Mark Ingram.
I still have no idea what your problem with Ingram is.
He was in a 3-back rotation most of the season, which killed his numbers. He was at almost 4.0 ypc though, in a complicated offense in which he had NO time to learn before the season started. He ran hard and ground out yards. And think about it- without him, PT probably gets hurt midseason. He was a more justifiable pick than Cam Jordan this year.
Drew Brees- the REAL MVP.
one thing is clear.. we can't explain love, or..
lack thereof..
overall, when you look at his game, is he better than pierre (undrafted) or ivory (ditto)?
or sproles (4th round)?
duece was a 1st round & he looked the part.. the only reason he wasn’t a top 10 pick was his senior injury @ ole miss.. he had all the measurable and intangibles of a running back that you can build an offense around.. & that we did.. his lack of production was due with his lack of touches, relegated to kick returner, for the most part..
he had an alleged cow-bell in front, a guy that had costed us a whole draft class..
hasslet, although not known for his extreme ability to manage talent.. in all fairness, inherited ricky.. & ricky was moody & needed to be fed the ball so he wouldn’t clam up & become erratic.. the rookie (duece) had to wait his turn..
the beef with ingram, is simple and to the point.. he doesn’t have any special “it” about him.. he’s ok.. but he ain’t no duece..
by the 9th plague on Feb 17, 2012 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
Was it supposed to say bruised hell or heel?
by Legatron Morstead on Feb 16, 2012 10:15 AM CST reply actions
True dat! lol
"Move over Marino, there's a new Brees coming through town!"-Jim Henderson
by BRSaintsFan on Feb 16, 2012 11:05 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
They changed it back to heel, but
I like yours much better!
by Legatron Morstead on Feb 16, 2012 6:24 PM CST up reply actions
No question about one of your questions
I believe he ultimately should be judged by his team contribution and contributions towards their ultimate goal, another Super Bowl win.
There’s no other way to measure his real value when rbs are used they are by Payton.
"I am a Saints player. Look, sir" Patrick Robinson
by CrazyforColston on Feb 16, 2012 12:37 PM CST reply actions
I'd say Reggie's value ultimately....
…and what made him less than a bust to the Saints, even beyond the good feeling he brought and excitement, was what he ultimately contributed as a team member. Doing his job when he did it well. And maybe even for of his fans, “when he was allowed to do his job well.”
"I am a Saints player. Look, sir" Patrick Robinson
by CrazyforColston on Feb 16, 2012 12:39 PM CST reply actions
I don't claim to be a doctor or anything
But heel bruises and sprained toes sound less serious than torn ACL’s or MCL’s. I’m hoping that these were just one of a kind things that won’t flare up in the future. As for his performance, I wasn’t overly impressed, but I need to see more than 122 carries in his rookie season to make a judgement. If anything, our drafting of Ingram gave us more depth at runningback, still clearly an important thing to have seeing as we only had Ivory and Sproles for most of the 49ers game.
The problem with turf toe is that it can recur. If you are going to go back to your same sport, on the same surface, in the same athletic shoe, you are almost destined for a recurrence.
Ah yes, had I done my research, I would have seen this. Maybe he should just cut it off?
Turf toe and bruised heels are bad.
And they can become chronic, which makes me dislike Ingram more.
I think Igrammania is actually a nasty rash.
As the draft approaches...
we’re going to be forced to ponder if the trade up for Ingram was a mistake. It would be interesting to know if we would still have done the trade if Payloo had known:
- that we were going to sign Sproles, and
- that Ivory would come back strong from his injury.
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010
Well no one knew that PT was going to be able to play his 1st injury free season either
Just because we have chiseled abs and stunning features, it doesn't mean that we too can't not die in a freak gasoline fight accident.
by Fat Punk Kicker on Feb 16, 2012 11:38 PM CST reply actions
For me, the jury is still out. I want to see more of Ingramania before I see my doc for a rash cream. I think he did ok this year. Was is worthy of trading our first round this year for him, IDK. We honestly didn’t know that Sproles was going to turn out so well. We all knew that PT was great and so was Ivory last year. I wasn’t sure if he was going to bounce back this year. Is he trade bait? Only if we can get Mario Williams, until then let him show us what he can do next year. He will have an entire non lockout preseason to get in shape and really show us his chops.
You get to speak for yourself on this one.
I knew Spoles was going to be fantastic, especially under Sean Payton. And it’s going to get even better when he runs the slot route more often. That’s cuz I pay attention to the farm team! The pleasant surprise about Sproles is his durability. Again, the Ingram pick was made before Sproles was signed. Sproles = Langiappe.
Wow
This really irks me.
Since when is 3.8 yards per carry in a rookie considered bad? Nearly every single one of his carries were straight up the gut. He was also the go-to in down and goal situations.
I personally thought he had a great rookie season sans the injury. He got better every week and he’s a very balanced back, who can lay the hit when necessary.
Everyone here is speaking as if he is a bust after one season.
I'd rather not wait until I'm dead to figure out how to live.
Don’t forget that Payton said he was holding Ingram back.
A HUGE factor that many people seem to either not know, or not remember.
by Dave Cariello on Feb 17, 2012 8:51 PM CST up reply actions
not a bust.. but is he worth what we invested..?
is he really 1st round talent..?
lemme remind you that some of the leading RBs in the league were late rounds, the leading rusher for houston, undrafted.. etc.
that’s the core to me.. he doesn’t look like a top class back.. he does several things adequately.. but he doesn’t have any real phenom qualities about him, which is what you want out of a 1st round pick.. the very first time i saw ivery i noticed right away that that may be great talent, that for whatever reason (conduct.. discipline.. small school..) didn’t get drafted.. the explosion was very real.. the, what they call burst.. can’t really coach that.. sure he is raw, and injury prone, & puts the ball on ground.. & tends to run with blinders, sometimes.. but the one, huge physical talent, he has..
i’m sorry to say.. i don’t see that in ingram.. a more polished player, already.. but not the same specimen..
imo: NOT 1st round material..
by the 9th plague on Feb 17, 2012 8:35 AM CST up reply actions
The majority of first rounders aren't first round talent
All it tends to mean is you are more likely to receive a quality player.
We need to stop measuring people based on draft rank and start measuring them based on contributions.
If we use this logic, then every other player in the league is garbage next to Colston as per the bang for buck calculations.
I'd rather not wait until I'm dead to figure out how to live.
by hooahsaint2.0 on Feb 17, 2012 8:46 AM CST up reply actions
it is the quality that i'm questioning..
thought i explained it.. nothing really outstanding about him.. that’s all..
seems that we could have done about as good with a late pick or a FA.. (we had a guy with talent in the roster – joique -)
by the 9th plague on Feb 17, 2012 8:56 AM CST up reply actions
I disagree
I like what he has shown and his versatility. I thought he did well for a rookie.
I'd rather not wait until I'm dead to figure out how to live.
by hooahsaint2.0 on Feb 17, 2012 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
not sure what he fuss is all about.. except the quality of the player..
that should be the focus.. he actually was needed.. so the 4-back thing did pay off.. with all the precautions we took, 5 minutes into the SF game we were down to 2 backs.. had we won that game, pierre would have probably sit the championship game and we would have had to scramble to get a replacement back in 3 days..
the question behind it all.. does ingram has the look of a 1st round pick RB..?
there is no doubt that we needed a 4th back.. now, could we gotten away with joique bell while ivory was in the PUP..? was it really necessary to burn a 1st round pick borrowed from this year, to get a middle of the pack RB (which is what ingram looks like, right now..)?
could we gotten away with joique bell while ivory was in the PUP..? was it really necessary to burn a 1st round pick borrowed from this year
That’s the million dollar question (literally). In my mind, it isn’t a matter of him being a first round talent, it is whether we would have been better served to keep the 1st round pick and pick a RB later on down the line.
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010

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