Dear Sean Payton: Stop Punting and Start Going For It!
Anyone watch HBO's Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel? I'm a big fan myself and thanks to TiVo, I never miss an episode. One of the four stories from the most recent installment, which first aired about a couple of weeks ago, I found particularly interesting.
It was a profile of high school football coach Kevin Kelley and his Pulaski Academy football team from Little Rock, Arkansas. If you didn't see the episode, perhaps you've heard of them anyway. Sports Illustrated wrote an article about them a little over two years ago. So what's so special about them?
They never punt.
That's right. Every single time their offense faces fourth down, the Bruins go for it, even in fourth and long situations. This probably sounds completely insane to a lot of football fans but to Kelley, it would be insane not to go for it.
I don't believe in punting and really can't ever see doing it again...
...It's like someone said, '[Punting] is what you do on fourth down,' and everyone did it without asking why.
Not only do they never punt, but each time they kick off it's almost always an onside kick. The team has an entire package of onside kick types and specific kickers to execute each one.
It's simple math really. Statistically, it makes more sense and is more valuable to hold onto the ball and go for that first down, which the Bruins pick up about half the time, than give their opponent back the ball. Here's a slightly more detailed example:
Consider the most extreme scenario, say, fourth-and-long near your own end zone. According to Kelley's data (much of which came from a documentary he saw), when a team punts from that deep, the opponents will take possession inside the 40-yard line and will then score a touchdown 77% of the time. If they recover on downs inside the 10, they'll score a touchdown 92% of the time. "So [forsaking] a punt, you give your offense a chance to stay on the field. And if you miss, the odds of the other team scoring only increase 15 percent.
And that's just the extreme scenario. The statistical advantage of going for it is even greater when a team is between the 40-yard lines. Similar statistics support the decision to always onside kick as well.
But these are just numbers. The real question is whether or not this theory actually works on the field in real life football situations. Unfortunately, Pulaski Academy is the only barometer we have to measure because they're the only team bold enough to actually execute it. Since Kelley took over in 2003, though, he's led his team to a record of 104-19 and won three state championships. I'd say that's a ringing endorsement.
So why hasn't this caught on and why does every other coach, particularly those in the NFL, choose to spit in the face of probability, regularly defying the odds? In short: they're yellow-bellied cowards.
Despite cold hard facts that prove otherwise, NFL coaches allow their emotions to get in the way and cloud their on-field football decisions.
Subject as they are to scrutiny, coaches have incentive to err on the side of conservatism. No coach gets fired or ripped on talk radio for punting on fourth-and-four. Most do when they go for it and fail.
That's where Real Sports and Sports Illustrated leave the story, however, and where I pick it up. Because I think it's about damn time at least one NFL coach stop using his heart and start using his head. While I absolutely understand how tough it is to buck the trend with a career and a family to think about, the numbers just don't lie. So who is going to be the pioneer?
The truth is, it's going to take a coach with huge cojones to eventually attempt this unthinkable strategy at the sport's highest level and make my dreams come true. A coach who already has enough moxie to try something like, say, an onside kick to start the second half of his life's biggest game. You guessed it, I'm talking about Sean Payton.
Which is why I don't think it's a coincidence that the one NFL coach featured in Real Sports' piece about Pulaski Academy was none other than our very own Saints coach. Because let's face it, if there is a current coach in the NFL right now who might actually try something like this, it's our Payton. Reporter Jon Frankel with Real Sports must have been thinking along the same lines...
Jon Frankel: How tempting is it go for it on fourth down?
Payton: Well, I think it's extremely tempting.
So let's see it, coach! We know you've looked at the numbers and you want to. If there's any team well built to execute this no-punting philosophy at the NFL level it's most likely the Saints, with their dynamic and powerful offense that would assuredly benefit from the extra down. Otherwise, somebody, somewhere will eventually take the risk and become the NFL's guinea pig, most likely with great success. It might as well be the Saints.
What do you guys think? You scared, too? Or are you ready to see the Saints completely change the way everyone looks at football?
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Domination baby!
I like it except for one fact, the NFL on average is better than average at converting scores than high schoolers. I would love to see the statistics for those plays in the NFL. I am a gambler so there have been plenty of times I was screaming for Hazlett, Ditka, et al, to go for it. Take a chance man! I know if I was coaching the Saints we would be going for it more on 4th down, Hey SP, got any openings????
SP: "No, No, No. I said 'Let's all take it to the Vikes again' not' Let's all take 2 Vicoden!'"
Greg Easterbrook of Tuesday Morning QB on ESPN’s page 2 has been writing about this and other statistical football analysis for years. His weekly article during the season is a must read for me. He hypothesizes that coaches don’t buck convention because they don’t want to do anything that would cause themselves to be blamed for a loss, even if it is statistically sound.
I think Payton is aware of the statistical advantage and that’s why he frequently goes for it on fourth down. In fact, he did not punt in the playoff game against Detroit. This is one reason I love our coach. He’s not afraid to stick his neck out, discard antiquated tactics, and do the smart thing even though he may be criticized by those who don’t understand.
In Breesus' name we play
by Breesus Christ Superstar on Feb 9, 2012 6:24 AM CST via mobile reply actions
It’s easier to stop a team the closer they get to the endzone. Receivers are not able to stretch the field and make for smaller throwing windows. The safeties are able to play up a little bit more and support the run.
The only real concern with a short field is the field goal.
I'd rather not wait until I'm dead to figure out how to live.
I get the theory here
It’s hard to side with that in the NFL though. Kickers in High School aren’t NEARLY as good. How would this coach feel about going for it on 4th down when it was almost guaranteed a non-conversion equalled 3 points for the other team.
Let’s say you could convert 50% of your fourth downs in the NFL. In one drive you are face with a 4th down inside your 30 and if you convert it, another later in the drive. You live up to your percentages and fail to convert one of the two. They both equal 0 points for your team and a failure on the first one almost guarantees the other team gets 3 points.
Let’s not forget too, the NFL is all about offense now as well.
I'd rather not wait until I'm dead to figure out how to live.
On the otherside of kickers being better in the NFL
when a team punts from that deep, the opponents will take possession inside the 40-yard line and will then score a touchdown 77% of the time.
If the average NFL punter kicks from the 5 yard line, a team would not be taking over from inside the 40, and would be much closer to midfield, decreasing the chances of an opponent scoring a td.
that's the difference
I could get behind always going for it once you reached midfield, but good NFL punters kicking from their own 10 should not be giving the other team starting field position inside the 40.
"But tonight the Superbowl belongs to the City of New Orleans" - Roger Goodell 2/7/2010
Still, a team could minimize kicking.
Like, say, anytime you pass your own 40 yard line, it seems foolish, to me, to kick. Heck, maybe even the 30, though that’s pushing it. But, maybe, from the 30 on short yardage, and 40 at any yardage. And, I have been seeing SP do a lot more of this kind of thinking, lately. I think we will see a lot more of this next season. He sure seemed to be fiddling with it as an additional weapon during the playoffs. God, but he loves his weapons, doesn’t he?
I liked the on-side kick thing, also. Kinda interesting but I can see why a coach would hesiste with that in a professional sport. Too many good hands people. Still…
Here's a problem I see happening in the NFL that might not in high school
Could you imagine how pissed off the defensive players would get if a team continually went for it in their own red zone and failed to convert? I think they would definitely be frustrated with having their backs to the end zone, and they’d tell the media about that frustration, eventually causing a huge distraction for the team. Basically, the egos are too big in the NFL, and something like this could hurt team chemistry in a significant way.
On the other hand, I completely agree that teams need to go for it more often when they’re around midfield and on the edge of field goal range, and I do believe that Payton is one of the more aggressive coaches in that area.
Um...
…where are the Fanposts? And the Fanshots?
What! shall we curse the planets of mishap
That plotted thus our glory's overthrow?
According to them.....everything is fine.....we are at threat level green
Your body's dying. Pay no attention, It happens to us all-Lestat
by AcquiredPanic on Feb 9, 2012 9:25 AM CST up reply actions
It does say they are keeping fanposts' shutdown right now....just saw that.
Your body's dying. Pay no attention, It happens to us all-Lestat
by AcquiredPanic on Feb 9, 2012 9:27 AM CST up reply actions
Just...
Open the fanpost page in a new window. I did it yesterday to catch up with the comments. Looks like only new post are on the home page.
Drew Brees....MVS Most Valuable Saint! Who Dat!!!
by cajuncommando58 on Feb 9, 2012 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
OK...
I opened it today and the new fanpost aren’t being posted on the home page either. The only one up there is the Lagniappe post, I guess because it has enough rec’s.
Drew Brees....MVS Most Valuable Saint! Who Dat!!!
by cajuncommando58 on Feb 9, 2012 11:29 AM CST up reply actions
I definitely agree that...
there are more opportunities to go for it on fourth down than coaches have the guts to pursue. I would not like the Pulaski approach, because it is a matter of time left in game, score, etc, but too many coaches punt on fourth and less than a yard from the middle of the field.
"I've seen George Foreman shadow box, and the shadow won." Muhammad Ali
All i can say is thank goodness FPK is not Fat Punk Punter, otherwise we will be seeing some steam rising in this comment section.
I think the obvious is that coaches do not employ this tactic at the NFL level due to job security.
Having said that, it would take a team like the Saints to execute this approach at the NFL level. Our third down conversion rate since SP and DB took the reigns is 56.7% in 2011 (1st in the league), 48.8% in 2010 (1st in the league), 44.7% in 2009 (6th in the league). 48.5% in 2008 (2nd in the league), 46.3% in 2007 (4th in the league), and 44.9% in 2006 (3rd in the league).
I take two things from those numbers. 1. How the hell didn’t we win the Superbowl this year (in full disclosure, any time I see anything relating this season I have the same knee jerk reaction). 2. If we had two bites of the cherry, and picked the opponents against which we employed the tactic (ie opponents with poor 3rd down defense – ie I am probably going to take the risk against New England, much less so against Baltimore), I would fully support going for it on 4th down.
Interestingly, lets look at how often the Saints go for it on 4th down. In 2011, we were ranked 25th, in 2010 we were ranked 25th, in 2009 we were ranked 18th, in 2008 we were ranked 7, in 2007 we were ranked 2nd, and in 2006 we were ranked 5th. Maybe its a function of our high performing offense and situation, but we are certainly going for it less on 4th down now then we did when Sean started his tenure with the Saints.
Of course, we can extend the debate to also discuss 2 point conversions…..
Thomas Morstead
Might be the reason behind the big drop off since it started in 2009.
Your body's dying. Pay no attention, It happens to us all-Lestat
by AcquiredPanic on Feb 9, 2012 9:40 AM CST up reply actions
somewhat agree....
Average punt yards we have ranked 14th, 13th, 10th, 16th, 6th and 4th over those years. Net yards (which is a function also of special teams coverage) we were ranked 10th, 17th, 26th, 30th, 6th and 2nd. So I agree our net punting sucked in 2008 and 2009, but it didn’t exactly suck in 2006 and 2007.
Also shows have much better we have gotten under FPP.
The Giants just won the Super Bowl because their punter pinned New England inside the 10 5 or 6 times.
Just because we have chiseled abs and stunning features, it doesn't mean that we too can't not die in a freak gasoline fight accident.
Dave, to bolster your argument there are studies...
from a Dan Wetzel article.
There’s been a slew of statistical studies that suggest NFL teams are too conservative on fourth down, that not only are they likely to earn the first down, but giving up the ball is a more negative play than coaches realize. And that’s even when they aren’t facing an offense like New Orleans or Green Bay or New England.
"Basically it’s because of loss aversion," said L. Jon Wertheim, the co-author of the book "Scorecasting: The Hidden Influences Behind How Sports Are Played and Games Are Won," a sort of "Freakanomics" for sports.
"We hate losing more than we like winning and therefore make decisions, sometimes irrationally, to avoid loss," Wertheim said. "NFL coaches are almost comically conservative on fourth down. A Cal economist [David Romer] did a study that we replicated in ‘Scorecasting’ and found that more than 90 percent of the time, NFL coaches make the suboptimal choice on fourth down when they punt.
"From doctors to portfolio managers, imagine another industry where the decision makers could fail to maximize your chance of success 90 percent of the time and we wouldn’t mind. But conventional wisdom says that you punt after three downs and coaches would rather be wrong than take heat from bucking conventional wisdom."
Our Time, Again !
Kevin Kelley was featured in Scorecasting.
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by Dave Cariello on Feb 9, 2012 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
I remember this article from a previous discussion and I'll say the same thing.
Most decision makers in ALL industries have no balls and wouldn’t go for it on 4th down. “We hate losing more than we like winning and therefore make decisions, sometimes irrationally, to avoid loss,” is just as true in every industry. That, by the way, is where startups come from. The guys in the comfy seats lost their balls, so the spunky kid who keeps being told, “Well, I don’t know. Let’s study that further” ad nauseum finally leaves in disgust to start his own company. It’s a symptom of the institutional structure.
This discussion was brought up after our overtime win against the Falcons
Statisticians all said Mike Smith was right for going for it at his own 30. Football experts all said the guy had lost his mind. I think it plays into what part of your team you have more confidence in. Mike Smith had no confidence in his defense, and therefore he figured that punting from any point in the field equated to a loss.
For a team like the Saints, I’m not sure how it would work out. On one hand, our defense is pretty bad, and it couldn’t get that much worse than it has been. On the other hand, our offense is already doing close to everything they can, so I don’t know how much room there is for improvement since they are scoring on most possessions anyway..
"I want to hand this trophy to the MVP of the Super Bowl -- and the MVP of the entire league.''
-- Saints coach Sean Payton, handing the Vince Lombardi Trophy to Drew Brees after Super Bowl 44.
Going for it on 4th down just some of the time or just when you REALLY want to pick up that first down is stupid. It’s all or nothing, in my opinion.
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by Dave Cariello on Feb 9, 2012 11:18 AM CST up reply actions
so down by 4 with 3 seconds left in the game, 4th down on the opponents 1 yard line and you are kicking a field goal because you are a “don’t go for it” team.
or 30 seconds left in the game and you are up by 4, 4th down and 20 on your 1 yard line. you are a “go for it” team. you go for it there, rather than punt the ball to the 50 and challenge them to hail mary it?
just don’t think it is as black and white as an all or nothing proposition, you would have to consider the situation and the opponent.
Obviously your situation is different
But if you think your team is good enough to convert a 4th and 1 late in the fourth quarter, why wouldn’t you do the same exact thing if your team had a 4th and 1 in the first quarter?
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by Dave Cariello on Feb 9, 2012 11:40 PM CST up reply actions
That just means that the Saints are the most opportune team to attempt something like this. The offense clicks so well, just give
them one more down and see what happens. Scary….for the opposition.
With our porous defense
I would go for it on ever 4th down too, our offense has a better chance of scoring than our defense keeping the other team from scoring. Hey, maybe if we did this and Brees threw for 7000 yards and 60 TD’s he could get more than 2 or 3 MVP votes………nah probably not
We can move him to safety
"I've seen George Foreman shadow box, and the shadow won." Muhammad Ali
Pulaski Academy is a private school that can recruit just like a college. They can put a better team on the field 99% of the time. If Alabama were playing Pulaski Academy, do you think the Tide would punt?
The difference in quality between teams in the NFL—say, the Saints and the Rams—is much, much narrower. You can’t afford to go for it on 4th and 10 from your own 9 when there’s a pretty good chance the prideful professionals on the other team will take it as a slight and run the ball down your fracking throat.
What! shall we curse the planets of mishap
That plotted thus our glory's overthrow?
Sounds like you're big, fat wuss.
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by Dave Cariello on Feb 9, 2012 11:38 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think it's implying you go for it every 4th down
but when it’s a 4 and 1 or a 4 and 2. Obviously, it’s not a good idea to go for it against teams like Baltimore and San Francisco
In fact, this whole discussion reminds me of that quote
“We hate losing more than we like winning and therefore make decisions, sometimes irrationally, to avoid loss,”
Listen
Ya’ll don’t even know you idiots. All of you are so pseudo wanna-be coolios, but you don’t even see what is right in front of your eyes. The Saints are going down. We are going down as a whole. These next few years we will come close to the big dance, but we will not reach the ultimate goal. Instead, we will insist on being mediocre because we insist on making sure that we sign the worst defensive coaches known to man. I will say that Drew Brees and our guards will make the hall of fame because of the production of these next few years, but the super bowl will not be within grasp. After Brees is done, Sean will leave, and the Saints will be at the bottom of the barrel like a tampon clogged in a drain pipe.
Will I support the Saints still? Hell to the yes
Will I love our current team and future team? Are you kidding me! Yes
Will I give up??? Never!
Always a Saints fan. TCP
I refer you to my original reply to this comment on another thread
"We live by the blitz, and we die by the blitz.'' - Roman Harper
"So I guess the blitz died.'' - Alex Smith
by Hans Petersen on Feb 10, 2012 7:51 AM CST up reply actions
Gosh, do I feel like an idiot.
That 37-11 regular season record we’ve amassed over the last three years, 4-2 in the playoffs, two NFC South titles, an NFC Championship, an insane number of offensive records, and a Super Bowl title, all that means is we suck!? Wow, I just never saw it that way. I feel like such a moron for not seeing what’s right in front of me. What was I thinking? How could I let that kind of success blind me into thinking that, somehow, we just don’t suck? Thank you so much for enlightening us. Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to put my head back up my a—.
Yes, Brees’ eventual decline and departure will probably suck. But gone are the days when we just never thought we could do it. Where is it written that it is in our nature to suck forever? Oh that’s right, in your post.
Love,
Just Another Pseudo Wanna-Be Coolio
The Pancho's Defense? ...Much like everybody's favorite Mexican cafeteria, it kinda blows, and it'll have you racing to the toilet while shouting "PLEASE! JUST HOLD ON FOR TWO MORE MINUTES!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, PLEASE!!!"--Grandmaster Wang, 30Nov2011
Sure, why not?
Incidentally, just because the boss calls you names, I don’t think that means you have to incorporate them into your sig line.
Say it with me, MtX: “I am neither big, nor fat, nor am I a wuss. And goshdarnit, people like me.”

The Pancho's Defense? ...Much like everybody's favorite Mexican cafeteria, it kinda blows, and it'll have you racing to the toilet while shouting "PLEASE! JUST HOLD ON FOR TWO MORE MINUTES!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, PLEASE!!!"--Grandmaster Wang, 30Nov2011

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